Everybody, welcome to our webinar today. I'm really excited to have Helen Lugar with me here today to chat, and this has been a long time actually in the making, isn't it, Helen? We've been talking about doing this webinar for years now, so we're very excited to finally be getting it together. So just a little bit about Helen to start with. Helen has got tons of experience working with young children and their families, and she's a qualified early years teacher with a background in Montessori. Helen is an early years consultant and an author, and she wrote the book Using Stories to Support Learning and Development in the Early Years, and she's contributed to Developing Empathy in the Early Years. She currently writes articles for leading parents and early years publications. I first met Helen when she was in charge at the Education List and organizing a conference with some fantastic speakers like Michael Rosen, Barbara Isaacs, Jenny Mosley, and just a massive thank you because Helen helped Toolkit right at the start while I was still hand-printing bags. So it was really early days for us when we first met. And I was really lucky to work with Helen while she was working with the empathy-focused Think Equal. She was a huge part of creating their curriculum, which has been recognized since with a WISE Award for innovation in addressing global challenges. And I know that they're going from strength to strength. Most of all, I just wanna say that Helen shares our passion for the power of story, and along with continuing to write and speak, she's also embarking on a new learning journey where she's gonna combine clay therapy with the storytelling process. So it's gonna be quite interesting to hear a little bit about that today. But not only does she use story as a tool for learning, but as a tool for change and a way forward. And I know that that message is gonna come across today when she speaks. So I'm really excited to speak with Helen today. So I'm over to you, Helen. Ah, Kate. Thank you. That's a lovely intro. Thank you. And yes, we've been united in that on the Tails Toolkit journey from the early days. I was still kind of making bags, and yeah, the training wasn't even created, so a long, long time ago, but yeah. So I'm really excited to be talking to you today. So tell me a little bit about your work with storytelling, Helen. So my work over the past few years has been to do with stories and storytelling, and the book that I wrote and my journey of researching and exploring storytelling started with my love of literature and what stories teach us. I'm really passionate about the opportunities that stories offer for learning to occur in a natural way. And I often use them with children as a base to teach from—a sort of jumping-off point from which to explore different subjects. My experience in pretty much every part of the world that I worked in was that children found stories to be magical. They found them to be comforting, and they found them to be wonderful. I've never encountered a child who was averse to anything to do with storytelling. And so I started this process of writing the book with the idea that I would be focused on narrative as input. But it was an interesting journey because my research evolved, and it led me to looking at storytelling from different perspectives. So yes, how we take stories in and what that does to us and for us, but also how we tell them and what that does to us and for us in terms of our emotions, our cognition, and our physical health, and how the story process can literally build up or break down our lives. The key discovery that I feel that I made and that I'm still making is that our expression, our voice, and the way in which we tell our stories can establish our sense of personal agency, can help us to hope, and can build resilience in our lives. And so I'd like to talk about those things. And I think today, because of the situation that we find ourselves in at present in the world, and because of the effect I believe it's having on us, I would like to start with a concept of hope. Mm-hmm. I love this idea, Helen, especially in the present day with everything that's going on at the minute. Can you expand a little bit more on that and tell us about kind of what hope is and how that relates to storytelling? Yeah. So I read a wonderful definition actually of hope over the past few weeks that I'd like to share. It's written by Nick Cave, who lost two of his sons over the past years. And he's responding to a man called Valerio who's written to him about cynicism and the struggle to remain hopeful. And he says something that I found so profound. He says, "Hopefulness is not a neutral position. It is adversarial, and it can lay waste to cynicism. Each redemptive or loving act—as small as you like, such as reading to your little boy or showing him a thing you love, or singing him a song or putting on his shoes—keeps the devil down in the hole. It says that the world and its inhabitants have value and are worth defending. It says that the world is worth believing in." I think that's very necessary to hear at this point in time. And so I'd like to explain a little bit more about what hope is because I think many of us consider hope to be a feeling or an emotion, and it's often confused with the word wish, which means to feel or express a strong desire for something that cannot or probably won't happen. But hope is actually something far more concrete. So hope is defined as a dynamic cognitive motivational system, which sounds very complex, but if I can explain: Dynamic speaks of movement. Cognition is about thinking. A system is a set of things working together. So hope is actually a moving, thinking collection of parts working together that motivates us. And it's having a sense that the future will bring better things and that you as an individual can create this by setting goals, by working out how to get there, and by finding the way to get there. The writer Rebecca Solnit explains hope as a beginning, as a basis for action. And she further explains by comparing it to optimism and pessimism. So this is interesting. She says, "Hope is an embrace of the unknown and the unknowable. It's an alternative to the certainty of both optimists and pessimists. Optimists think it will all be fine without our involvement. Pessimists take the opposite position, but both excuse themselves from acting. Hope is actually the belief that what we do matters." And something that I found so fascinating is that hope is the single best predictor of wellbeing across the lifespan. That's really interesting. We need hope to live. We need hope to survive. And so, when it comes to our children, hope can be nurtured and developed, and we can model it for them. And this is where story comes in in a really powerful way. Research shows that hope is formed in the lives of children when they're connected to adults who believe in them and who teach them to mentally time travel. There's a wonderful professor, Richard Miller at the Sanford School of Social and Family Dynamics at Arizona State University, and he's been studying hope for four decades. He explains this mental time travel as recalling past events that help us to understand what works and what doesn't as we plan for the future. So actually, that evaluation of the past—that mentally time traveling, that looking and assessing—is not a negative thing. It's a positive thing. It's a hopeful thing. Another wonderful researcher that I came across who works in South Africa, a lady called Avid Cherrington, says that hope implies taking action to pursue a future vision. And really, if we think about it, how do we have a future vision? We imagine it. We visualize it. We tell ourselves a future story. So we cannot hope without imagination and without mental time travel. We visit the stories of both the past and our future. So really, hope is imagining and then living out a new story. And what's important here is not just the imagination part, as Solnit says—that's the beginning. It's the doing part too. Just as we say love is a verb, hope is also a verb. So it's something that has the active part. And I love this: hope, once ignited, gains momentum and is self-sustaining. It's not easily extinguished. So when we think in a hopeful way and we act in a hopeful way, this becomes a way of being. And if you think about it, hope is considered by Paulo Freire to be a core underpinning of education and all its processes because it's the belief that we're in the process of becoming, we are en route. And of course, this makes perfect sense because how can any education take place without a belief in a better tomorrow where an individual has learned and grown and developed? Paulo Freire actually once remarked that "without hope, there is no way we can even start thinking about education." I love this, Helen. It's really interesting. I really like the idea of future time travel because when I think about the children that I've worked with and the adults that I know that have problems, there is that real needing to see a better tomorrow, isn't there? And where am I gonna go, and how am I gonna get forward? And how am I gonna move out of this? And it's a real ability and something maybe we should be thinking more about teaching. I saw something on Facebook actually the other day. It was really interesting. It was one of these little memes, and it was somebody sat reading a book, and it said, "When you actually think about the concept of reading, it's crazy because it's just looking at a few slices of wood and vividly imagining things." And it is—that's kind of what we do. We look at some pieces of wood and visualize things in our head, don't we? Absolutely. Yeah. That's kind of what story is. It's that being able to visualize stuff and think about things and see a future and see the next stage. It transports us. And in that transportation, I think is the change of perspective. Whether we revisit past events, whether we are lost in the story of someone else, whether we are imagining the future—in that transportation is a change in us. It really is so powerful and so simple. And actually, visualizing is a real skill that you can learn, isn't it? As you see hope and agency—so the taking of action by an individual—and story are intertwined as we live out our lives. The definition of personal agency is a person having the sense that they are the one who is causing or generating an action. And story works to build this in the lives of children. In an article written by Dr. Robin Fivush in Psychology Today called "How the Stories We Tell About Ourselves and Others Shape Who We Are," she explains how when we hear the stories of everyday people—people we know and love—engaging in small acts of heroism, we begin to understand that this is something that we can do too. It is these small stories that connect adolescents not just to their family history but to larger history and a history in which individuals make a difference and create change. And research out of the Family Narratives Lab at Emory University has highlighted the importance of these stories in building resilience—that's the ability to deal with adversity—and self-esteem and cultivating a sense of meaning and purpose in life. And we can continually build a sense of being able to cause an action in children by telling them agentic stories and by creating opportunities for them to overhear agentic stories. For example, you can tell them stories about their learning: "Look at what you did. You went from A to B. You learned about X. You are now able to do X. You worked it out. You solved a problem. What do you think you can do next?" Also, you can tell stories about their learning to others in a detailed way—so when you know they're in earshot, that they can hear you: "Do you know that so-and-so was able to do this and that?" And when we tell stories about the children when they're in earshot but not being spoken to directly, the reception is actually enhanced. There's no barrier such as shyness or deflection, and there's no discussion where they're required to consider their response to you. So it allows the words of the story we're telling to really sink in, and the child feels important because we've taken the time to speak highly of them to another person. And in this way, we are modeling these stories of agency. And the potential is there for them to begin to tell themselves agentic stories, being able to reflect on the ways in which they've planned and achieved and overcome obstacles. And what's interesting about this is that you may think that having this type of agency and autonomy might lead to individualism and independence in an unhealthy way—to a kind of selfishness. But this isn't borne out by the research. It's actually the opposite. Having a sense of personal agency and autonomy doesn't lead to disconnection but enhances a person's capacities for collaboration and positive relationships. And an important part of this is story agency—so controlling the narrative of your own life. What does life look like and feel like to you? And here's a fascinating study that I'd like to share with you about how we tell the stories of our lives and what that can do to change our lives. In a study carried out by Adam Grant and Jane Dutton, they asked a group of university call center fundraisers to keep a journal for four consecutive days. In one condition, they asked the fundraisers to write about the last time a colleague did something for them that inspired gratitude. And in the second condition, they asked participants to write about a time that they contributed to others at work. The aim of the study was to find out which type of story would lead the research subjects to be more generous. Because the fundraisers were paid a fixed hourly rate to call alumni and solicit donations, the researchers decided that the number of calls they made during their shift was a good indicator of prosocial helping behavior. And so they monitored the fundraisers' call records after Grant and Dutton had analyzed the stories. They found that the fundraisers who told stories about being the beneficiary of generosity showed no changes in their behavior. But those who told the story of themselves as benefactors ultimately made significantly more calls to alumni after the experiment than they had before. So Grant and Dutton's study suggests that the ability of a story to create meaning doesn't end with the crafting and the telling of the tale. The story the fundraisers told about themselves contributing to and helping others led to meaningful behaviors—them giving of themselves in terms of time and effort. This is so fascinating—even though the fundraisers knew they were only telling the stories as part of a study, they ultimately lived by those stories. Yeah. That's really interesting, isn't it? It's really interesting that sort of telling stories about others didn't have any impact at all, isn't it? It is kind of that whole something that I can do—that going back to that personal agency. And it's by reframing that narrative, by reframing their own narrative, they adopted a positive identity that led them to live more purposefully. This study is from an article written by Emily Esfahani Smith, who's actually written a wonderful book called The Power of Meaning. And she also has a TED Talk, which is great. And in this article that she's written, she goes on to explain even making smaller story edits can have a big impact on our lives. One of the great contributions of psychology and psychotherapy research is the idea that we can edit, revise, and interpret the stories we tell about our lives, even as we are constrained by the facts. A psychotherapist's job is to work with patients to rewrite their stories in a more positive way. Through editing and reinterpreting his story with his therapist, the patient may come to realize that he is in control of his life—there's the agency—and that some meaning can be gleaned from his hardships. A review of the scientific literature finds that this form of therapy is as effective as antidepressants or cognitive behavioral therapy. That's big, isn't it? And do you know what, the interesting thing for us as well is that this is huge and comes into play in terms of working with children because a lot of the children that the people who are listening to this will have stories that are being inputted at home. They'll have things that they're hearing. And so as a teacher or practitioner that works with children, often a big part of what you do is rewriting their story for them, isn't it? And rewriting their story with them and getting them to see themselves in a more hopeful way. Yeah. So yeah, it does make a lot of sense, doesn't it? Because you know, they're absorbing the language, the tone, the gestures. They are literally, and oftentimes they are repeating that and modeling that. And it just becomes sort of entrenched in terms of their thinking, their feeling, and their behavior. And so, absolutely, oftentimes as teachers and practitioners, you are required—it's necessary—to work to counteract that, I think. And even the tiny things—like I know I've got Ivy now—just even the tiny things that she will pick up on, like something that's said in passing, and then three or four days later, she'll bring it up and say it again. And I'm like, "I don't even remember saying that." I think the small things—these tiny little chips that happen all the time that they're hearing—that's what's writing the story for these children, isn't it? And it's like you said, it's the gestures, the way you speak to them, the way you listen to them, the way you give them time—it's all of those things that help them to have a different story about themselves and their value. Grace and courtesy—I think that lovely modeling of grace and courtesy to others and the way that you react—children are watching the fleeting glance on your face as you interact with people. They are always modeling morality, these essential qualities, really the virtues for them. And they're taking it in. And I think, you know, just from the study, it's so huge when you think about the rise in mental health issues in the present day amongst children, teens, adults, as well as the prescription and use of antidepressants. I know so many people in my own world who take antidepressants. And telling different stories or telling stories differently can help us and can heal us. Yeah. No, I think it's massive. And I think mental health is just massively on the increase, isn't it? And anxiety and all sorts of issues for a lot of people. And I think also as an adult working with children, it's that modeling hope—that having that story for yourself, not only kind of for their story but in terms of me being able to do that in front of children that I work with or my own child—being able to say, "Oh, you know, I can change my own story. I can be hopeful about my next step or the next thing we're gonna do together." Or like, modeling that for children, I think is really big, isn't it? Absolutely. Absolutely. To create, you know, if you're having a bad morning, to create an alternative ending—to change the script, to reset. If you've had an unfortunate event or there's a difficult circumstance, that you extract the meaning from the suffering. How do you tell that story? Do you tell it as something that is destructive? Do you tell it as something that is meaningful in its learning? You said that stories are important in our lives in many ways. Can you expand on this for us? So if we think about stories in general—the ones that we listen to, read, and watch—they're important because they have the power to change us by providing us with the space to explore moral dilemmas, to question choices, to understand consequences, and to grapple with difficult issues and reflect. And you know, we won't have every experience in life, but through the stories of others, we can be exposed to many more experiences and the resulting thinking and feeling that comes with that. And as we tell our own stories, we give ourselves the space to figure things out and to grow. I was reflecting on story just this last week again in terms of these times because there was an evening where I was immersed in the news and the narratives of the people caught up in these incredibly painful and dire circumstances. And I decided that I needed to have some respite from it. And I'm fortunate that I have the luxury to make that decision, to choose to do that. And I decided to watch a film, and it was a light-hearted film on Netflix about a lady who decides to create a new life for herself in an idyllic place. And in that film, I found such beauty and such joy and such shelter. So story can challenge us and change us and help us and heal us, but it can also provide solace and respite and lead to a sense of renewal. Yeah. That's it. No, that's true. Yeah. And often I know when I've had a bad day, a good rom-com can always help. Like it's finding something very easy to watch at the end of a hard day, isn't it? Yeah. Well, you don't have to think—you know, there's space for comfort and for joy, and stories can do that too. And you know, what's interesting is I often find—and you'll find this with children—they ask for the same story. Yeah, they do. And again, sometimes we do the same as adults—we watch a rom-com that we might have seen many times before. But I think it's the familiarity and the knowledge that we know the plot, there are no surprises, there's no anxiety—there's just comfort. And I think there's a time for that too. Yeah. It's true. I think I've watched Dirty Dancing about 35 times. It always gets me that bit when he comes in and he's like, "Nobody puts Baby in the corner," but you kind of know it's coming and there's no surprises. But yeah, it's just as good. I have two that I love. I have The Proposal—I absolutely love with Sandra Bullock—and I love Dan in Real Life with Steve Carell. Oh my goodness. Two of my absolute favorites. I'm gonna watch them over Christmas. Yeah. It's comfort and it's an escape. Yeah. And it's very necessary at times. It really is. I think so. Yeah. We chatted a little bit—I'm going off on a tangent a little bit—but we were chatting the other day about all of this stuff that is happening on the news and being able to switch that off and just this whole sense of personal agency because often when it does come to the news, I know we've chatted about this before, there is that struggle of you watch all this negative stuff and these awful things that are happening, and they feel like there's nothing you can do. And it's that feeling of not having that power to do anything about it. I dunno if you kind of just wanna touch on that briefly on what your thoughts are. Of course. Yeah, absolutely. Because we did have a very interesting discussion around this about the quote from Mr. Rogers. And I actually went away and did some research on that quote—that lovely quote. And it's often put on Instagram in response to tragedies that happen. And really difficult events. The quote goes: "When I was a boy and I would see scary things in the news, my mother would say to me, 'Look for the helpers. You will always find people who are helping.'" And you know, this quote has become huge on social media, as I said, and it's often bandied about when there's a disaster. But I read a few articles around it, and they were very interesting because they basically said that this quote is intended for young children to provide comfort—not for adults. Because as adults, we shouldn't simply be looking at the other people who are helping, but we should be finding ways in which we can help too. And there's the personal agency. And so what I would say, you know, with these horrendous events, is that for the children, absolutely look for the helpers and the heroes and focus on the stories of comfort and hope. And for us as adults, I think we need a combination. So yes, consider the helpers and the heroes. I've found the heroic stories that I've been hearing so helpful these last weeks—the stories of real courage in this current situation. And we can allow these stories to be a comfort. But the tales of others must also galvanize us. So they must cause us to take action of our own in some way. So do we advocate? Do we educate? Do we donate? What can we do in response to monumental, frightening events? And I think when we act agentically, we model this for children. So yes, they're being calmed and comforted by us pointing out the helpers. But listen to this research has shown that because of the brain's mirror networks, the marvelous trick of the mind that allows us to feel as though we are doing what we see others doing. So through that our kids can experience the arc of giving. Yes. The initial flush of generosity, the execution of act, and the help is high. They can actually experience that through us. Right? So this causes them to feel the feelings of being a helper and our actions can cause them to become people who act. Yeah. So again, you know, not lectures and lengthy explanations or moralizing or teaching that's not needed, but us sort of modeling and living out a story where we actually, that's what actually changes them. You've said that you believe storytelling can be life changing. Um, can you chat a bit more about this? Like I'm, I totally, I totally agree with you. I think it, it definitely is life changing, but I'd love to hear your kind of view on this. So, so there are three fundamental parts of storytelling that I believe are life changing. Um, the first is the way that we've covered briefly in which we tell the stories of our lives. The second is the language we use in our everyday lives. And the third is the process of emotion differentiation. So if we first consider the way we tell stories about our lives, which I'll expand on for you. So as in the study carried out by Adam Grant that I mentioned previously, the individual stories that we tell can change the way that we behave, but the way in which we tell them over time can also change the way that we ultimately live. Yeah. So there's this fascinating piece of research that was done by a man called Dan McAdams, who after working with life stories and me for 30 years and analyzing hundreds of such stories, found interesting patterns in how people living meaningful lives understand and interpret their experiences. So he found that people motivated to contribute to society and to future generations. A concept called generativity were more likely to tell redemptive stories about their lives. That is stories that move from bad to good, and stories that extract meaning from suffering. Mm-hmm. And in contrast, others told what Mac McAdams described as contamination stories. So where people interpreted their lives in terms of bad events, overshadowing the good. Yeah. And in his findings, the people who told contamination stories were more likely to feel that their lives were less coherent, so less whole than those who focused on redemption stories. And, you know, if we think about it, redemption literally means to save. Mm-hmm. And I love that because by extracting meaning from suffering, and by looking for the good in which in what can sometimes be difficult to even tragic circumstance or events, we are able to save ourselves and possibly save those around us due to our interconnection, because, you know, no story is ever told in isolation. So our stories are linked, interlinked with those of others, and we really become ourselves through our shared stories with other people, uh, which is what makes life so beautiful and, and so full of suffering. It can turn your day around massively to be with children, can't it? Yeah. So we're very lucky in, in a lot of ways to have that in our lives as practitioners that work with children. So Absolutely. And particularly young children, you're right, because you're not working to counteract and to sort of get through, you know, sort of a whole lot of stuff before you actually access the learning. You're right. And the creativity and the joy and the thinking. Yeah. It's sort of right there, isn't it? It's, uh, yeah. Yeah. We're, we're very lucky to have that. So, yeah. Yeah. So all you listening, like, I know there's a hor whole lot of horrible stuff like planning and paperwork and meetings and long hours, but yeah, we get to be with the kids, so Absolutely, absolutely. No, the, the, the tremendous joy there just is, it's, uh, it's, it's so joyful. So if we consider this in terms of young children and the way that they interview, story and play, and the skills that are being developed, we see that story and dramatic play allows for the use of symbol and the use of metaphor. So it gives the children room to stand back behind what they're doing and work things out without us peeling back the layers and asking them to declare themselves. So here they have room to explore. It allows them to express themselves developing emotional differentiation, which I'll expand on. And that aids in emotion regulation. It allows them to communicate with each other through negotiation and compromise. It fosters the skills needed in relationships. Um, it allows for cognition, for logic, for hypothesis. If we do this, how will this feel for us? For others, it allows for perspective. So the understanding that there are many ways of looking at something of doing, of being, um, it can provide children with a 360 degree view. So what does the story look like or feel like for the protagonist, for the antagonist, for the minor characters, you know, what did, do they see that the main characters may have missed? What does this look like from over there? This is, um, this is perspective and stories and exploration, morals and ethics. What is right again, what feels right for me is this right for the others? And it causes an examination of the individual and the collective. So this might be good for me, but you know, when they're playing out in a story, oh, but this isn't good for everyone and this is actually good for everyone else, but this isn't good for me. So you see with them, you know, what part of the self must be subjugated and what part of the self must be celebrated. And this is the work of life. The, the boundary setting, the absolutes, the deal breakers, the areas where we can compromise, you know, how how do we get along with others? And it allows for critical thinking and creative thinking. So we can ponder what could have happened if and with children, you can think about alternative endings and create them. What would you have liked to have happened? Yes. Um, and you know, to this point and to the community part of story, I'd like to add something that I believe is so essential for us to teach to young children. So I'll share a personal story here just to highlight this. And, and this is something that really struck me. So, um, as I was preparing this, so a few years ago we were having a dinner party in our home one evening with, um, with some people who at the time we considered to to be friends. And my husband is someone who doesn't share information about himself or his life very openly at all. Um, but that night he was sharing a couple of stories, um, about his work and about traveling. And as he was doing this, I caught one of them glancing at another one, um, in, in quite a telling way. It wasn't a positive thing. And I had this moment of realization that his stories weren't safe with these particular people. Yeah. Um, and the relationships actually subsequently floundered. Um, and that night was actually a, a pivotal moment in that process, in, in the, in the unraveling. Mm-hmm. And, you know, the key takeaway from that experience for me was really an underlining of this work and something that I deeply believe to be true, which is that our stories are sacred. And, you know, when we share our stories, we are sharing our lives with people. And, and what I would encourage to be taught to children is for them to seek out friendships and relationships where their stories are at minimum safe. Mm-hmm. But really where their stories are honored and celebrated and considered sacred. And, you know, the way that we receive our children's stories is so crucial because this is what we're modeling for them in terms of how the stories should be received by others. And if we honor them as they tell their stories, and if we treasure what they tell us, we set the bar very high, and they will in turn set the bar high in their relationships. We don't need to explicitly teach to them, as I said before, but through the way that we respond to them. So much of this is implied. And I think they need to know what it feels like to be honored and to be valued, and for their stories to be safe and, and considered to be sacred. And that feeling will stay with them. And you know, if you think about it, our agency and our identity are affected by how I, our stories are received by those around us. We are either affirmed and encouraged, or we are discouraged. And that's why it's essential that we focus on relationships where we are edified and where our stories and in turn, our sense of self is validated. Um, and you know, one of my sisters, my youngest sister is a wonderful storyteller, and her stories are full of details. Mm-hmm. And, um, I'm sure that over the now more than 40 years that we've been telling each other stories, I've heard the same ones many, many times over. But to be honest, there's nothing that I love more than to listen to her and to the other people in my and, and to the other people in my life that are closest to me as, as they share and recount their stories. And even if I've heard them many times before, and there's a wonderful mentor of mine, um, that I talk to quite often, and she quotes the poet Mary Oliver to me, and there's a lovely line that Mary Oliver wrote that, that says, attention is the beginning of devotion. Mm-hmm. And another statement that I once heard, which really struck me, which is, is along those lines, it's, it said that something along the lines of, there are three words that are equal to I love you. Mm-hmm. They are, tell me more. That's really nice. Mm-hmm. And when you think about it though, Kate, how often do we say that to other people? How often do they say it to us? How often do we say it to the children? And I think we, we need to take a moment to reflect on how much we say that to others, how much time and attention we give them in, in today's hurried world, you know? Yeah. Tell me more. And I think as well on that point, like we're talking about teaching children to be storytellers, um, and to have their own story and have that sense of agency. But I think also there's a real importance in teaching children to be good listeners and to be able to listen really effectively and, and actually, you know, say the things that the other person goes, oh, I've been heard. So yeah, I think that is something, as adults, we can teach children in schools, isn't it? Um, absolutely. Abso to, to that active listening, to paraphrase, to repeat back to Yeah. When we're hurried to say I, and, and to let them know, you know, whatever the situation is, you know, we might, may be hurrying to do something. I want to hear you. What you have to say is important, you know, it's valuable. And, and I think exactly, I wrote a little bit about being seen that, um, we'll, we'll chat about later, but Absolutely. Children, and, and we all just want to be seen and heard. Yeah. It's true. And I think for everybody, children in particular, when you hear somebody say something, when you are listening, it's often a trigger for something in your mind that goes, oh, I wanna tell you something that happened to me, it relates to that. Or, I wanna tell you something about me that, that I remembered when you said that. Or, um, and then that kind of is like, you know, that you're like, oh, I'm waiting for this break for me to be able to say that and you kind of lose this. No, I'm here to just listen to you. Like, my job is just to listen to what's going on here. So yeah. 100%. I did some of the clay work the other day Yes. For the first time, uh, with two children who were seven. And honestly, it was so interesting, the difference in just holding the space for them Yes. To be able to work with the clay and to be able to express themselves and not to teach, not to, not to preach, not to counsel, not to, just to hold the space. And I think what you said is exactly what we do. We listen to respond. Yes. Mm-hmm. We don't listen to really fully gather the information and to really, you know, fully understand and just to allow space, sort of at the beginning, at the end of, of what somebody is saying to us. It, it's so interesting. We are, we are really, we, we often are listening to respond and, and it's a different type of listening. So, and, and, and actually sometimes I think that listening to respond, um, sort of impacts the quality of the listening. We're not fully listening then, you know, so because part of our brain is actually distracted by the thing that we wish to say. And so it's really, it's very interesting. It's very, and and I think that that just stopping yourself counting to five, you know, and, and sometimes we don't have to say all the things we think. Yes. Yeah, it's true. 'cause there is that kind of fear of, I don't say it now. I'm not gonna get it out. I'm gonna forget. I'm not gonna remember at the end of the conversation. And does it matter? Yeah. Yeah. Oftentimes not. Yeah. Yeah. I think as I get older, I'm realizing that, you know, let let it go. Yeah. Yeah. That's, uh, it's interesting, um, just thinking about that, um, Helen, kind of like, I was thinking about the storytelling and the listening and all the things you talked about so far. Um, kind of another important fundamental part of storytelling really, is that language that we use. I don't if you just wanna chat a little bit more about that. Lev Vygotsky, the, um, Russian developmental psychologist said that the relation of thought to word is not a thing, but a process. So it's a continual movement back and forth from thought to word and from word to thought. And that thought is not merely expressed in words, it comes into existence through them. So our language creates, facilitates and expands our thinking. So this means that we have a tremendous responsibility in terms of the words we speak to children, and the language that we provide in their environment, the language that we use and model and teach. So let me give you a great example of this, which I've used before, but I think it's so essential in gaining an understanding of the importance of the accurate use of language. So there's a writer called Megan Cox Gerden, and in her book she wrote a wonderful, wonderful book on reading aloud with children. So children from very young ages to older children. And it's called The Enchanted Hour. If, if anybody, you know, could get ahold of it, it's a, it's really inspiring and wonderful. And she says, uh, she, she wrote, um, what I feel is just a, a wonderful explanation, um, about this. So she said, language allows children to occupy the world, their castle as owners. It means they can understand and describe things with texture and precision. It means that if a girl sees a dog or squirrel say, moving with great speed, she can describe what's happening. Is the creature darting or sprinting racing or fainting ambling or scampering, when something frightening happens, she can fine tune her explanation. It was chilling, alarming, macabre, ghastly, daunting, or perhaps just unpleasant gradations of meaning matter, because they bring us closer to the truth. Mm-hmm. And I love the statement, we want this for children to have the tools to be able to express themselves truthfully and to be understood. And what we also want in going back to Vygotsky here, is for them to think accurately. So for the last few years, there's been such a focus on positive thinking and something that I actually think is deeply flawed and can lend itself to not acknowledging the truth of situations. So I think what we need to teach children is accurate thinking and logical thinking and critical thinking. But as we said earlier, with a positive slant, so with hope, yes, it's not a denial of the truth, it's not a denial of the circumstances, but it's, it's, it's accuracy, it's logical. And then where do we go from here? And so helping them to develop their vocabulary and their language skills will further enhance their thinking abilities. But also, just lastly to consider, Maya Angelou said something, she said something so powerful. She, she, she described words in this way, and she said, words are things, someday we'll be able to measure the power of words. I think they are things they get on the walls, they get in your wallpaper, they get in your rugs, in your upholstery and your clothes, and finally into you. Mm-hmm. And so, you know, to, just to ask the listeners and, and for all of us to consider, you know, what words, this is what we just touched on briefly, what words are getting into your children? So the children that you're teaching and raising, what stories are you telling about them? And to them to encourage them and to edify them and to build them, you know, stories and language and words change us the content, the manner in which we speak are emphasis. And I think we all have words that have been spoken to us or about us that we remember. Mm-hmm. The ones that break us that might have taken us many years to work through and to counteract or defeat. And the ones that build us, that remain with us always sort of as these warm kind of embers in our soul. So it's for all of us to consider our words so carefully before we decide to speak them. Mm-hmm. Yeah. No, it's interesting. I'll tell you what's comes through more for me as an adult, um, in many, many conversations that I have with different people, with different mental health issues, very different upbringings, very different backgrounds, very different words that they've heard. The one thing that most people kind of come down to is a feeling of not being good enough. Like there's this, at some point there was some words or something that happened that made them feel that they're not good enough in some way. And I think it's really important for us to get that for our children, that they feel good enough. Like, I don't know if that's, I dunno if you've come across that anywhere, but it just seems to be something that in conversations with, with adults that are having kind of adulthood this real feeling of, in some way something happened, something was said that's really embedded in their soul and made them feel that in some way they're not what they should be, or good enough or as good as somebody else, or so, yeah. No, I, I think I encounter the same thing. And I have to be honest with you, that much of it that I encounter is around education. Much of it is around education and, and a feeling of inadequacy. And I think, you know, that's why I love the idea of sort of formative assessment and, and always focusing, you know, from the time the, from, from the time that children are very young, you know, and I think with each other two and in our lives is, I mean, two things here. One is always looking at what you can do. Yes. So what can you do? What are your strengths? And, and what are you working towards? You know, not that, not that what, what does this child cannot do this, or this child is not doing this, or this person is, is student is not doing this. And I think we do that with each other in our lives, I think. Um, but I think it's, it's rather looking at, at somebody and saying, wow, those are their strengths. You know, she's a great baker, she's such a giver, you know, she, you know, it, it's that. So I think that that's, that's number one. And the other thing that I think is, I think that this, these feelings of inadequacy and these feelings of being stuck in, in certain, um, descriptions of who we are. I think, again, it comes down to stories a a lot. You know, I have, I have three siblings, I have a large family. And, um, I think what's really interesting is that oftentimes, and these are just family dynamics, right? This is just, just people all over. But I think, I don't know if you find this, Kate, but we tell each other, we tell ourselves and other people outdated stories Yes. About, about, about others in our lives. So we, we, we, we hold onto them or we formulate them, we hold onto them, and we continue to tell ourselves those stories. And I think oftentimes, particularly with the people closest to us, we don't allow them to evolve. And, and you'll often see this in, in, in nurseries, in schools, in settings. That's the child who's behaves in this way. They are this, you know, and they're labeled. And it's very, very hard to, to once, once that's there to, to write it, to, to tell a new story, to write a new story. Um, and I think, and we, and so we do this through, through, throughout our lives. And I think, I think again, it's, it's that it's taking a moment to think, is this actually true? Does the story apply to the sibling that I I, I hardly ever see year after year? Does the story still apply to them? You know, does this narrative fit? And oftentimes it doesn't. And so I think it's, it's those two things. It's focusing on, on what people can do, what, what is, what is it about them that, you know, focusing on the strengths and then, and allowing all of us to live out new stories every day, to grow to, to, I think that's the, the hope and the freedom, right, is Yeah, that's what I would say to that. Yeah. And I think also you saying about the system, like the education system, I think that often the story of education is quite outdated. Like it's something that maybe fit a system that worked years ago. And we talk about this a lot, um, and I'm sure there's, there's that, like you saying, kind of finding children's strengths and having space to find their strengths. And that might not be math, literacy or science, it might be the way that they are with their friends. It might be something that they do that's musical, it might be something that drama. Yep, yep, yep. Making space for those children to find that passion, because like, we don't know what they're gonna become in the future and what their story's gonna be. And, and if we can't foster that in school, they are gonna come out. And I, I know a lot of adults that did come out of the education system and didn't really know where to go and what to do and what their passion was. No. So I think Absolutely. And, and, and, and along with that, a narrative of failure. Yes. A narrative, you know, it, it's story of failure. And, and all it is, is that they, you know, they absolutely, they hadn't discovered their thing. And, and oftentimes I don't think you, you know, there, there are many instances where people don't discover it until later in life. You know, you, you sort of need to crack on and, and, and get a job and do the next thing. And, and sometimes it takes time, you know, but that, that academic model, it doesn't work for many, many people. And I, as you say, I know many people in life, they have a narrative of failure, and it's because they didn't fit into the narrow confines of that system. Um, great. I know great entrepreneurs, great, you know, really talented people. So, so yes, we have to, we have to be brave enough to, to, to tell different stories and to also to to reassess, you know, what education is and also to reassess what success looks like. I think. So. So I think, yeah, I think it's just kind of a big message to get across there about supporting our children to feel good enough, isn't it? Absolutely. And Another fundamental part that I feel is kind of coming through what you're saying is that emotional side, that emotion differentiation, which ties in very closely with language and children being able to talk their truth. Um, do you want to expand a little bit more on that? Yes. So, um, so emotional d emotion, emotional granularity, which is also known as emotional. Um, differentiation is the ability to point to pinpoint exactly how we are feeling. So using words that are more specific than the usual, happy, sad, angry, excited. So language usage is key here, because assigning a specific label to a specific emotion means that you're able to identify them more clearly. And I'd like us to take a look at this word wheel on the slide for a minute, and to consider our own language and the language we use with the children in our care on a daily basis. So just consider saying, just to consider saying to a child that they're a bit cross, when what they are is actually deeply frustrated. Or when we say to a child that they're sad when what they feel is, is despair or heartbreak. So we are offering them literal crumbs when what we have in terms of language at our disposal is a feast. So it takes commitment and it takes work to nourish them with this, but it's really imperative in terms of their wellbeing. So the interesting thing is that low level emotional granularity means that you're using a very limited amount of words to express yourself. So things like happy and sad and cross, while high level granularity means that you have the vca the vocabulary to accurately label your emotions. So the researcher Brene Brown says that learning to label emotions with a more nuanced vocabulary can be absolutely transformative. So in fact, recent research has shown that when our access to emotional language is blocked, our ability to interpret incoming emotional information is significantly diminished. Likewise, having the correct words to describe specific emotions makes us better able to identify those emotions in others as well as to recognize and manage the emotional experiences when we feel them ourselves. Research shows that people with low emotional granularity, particularly the inability to distinguish between negative emotions are more likely to experience depression and social anxiety disorders, while people with high emotional granularity tend to be less reactive to rejection and failures experience fewer bouts of anxiety and depression, and are generally less prone to self-sabotaging coping strategies like excessive drinking and incidents of violence or aggression. And, and here's something really fascinating to think about. Even phobias seemed to improve with emotional granularity techniques. So those struggling with arachnophobia who learned to describe their feelings when faced with spiders experienced less anxiety than people who were coached to think po to either think positively about the spider or ignored entirely, they were even more comfortably comfortable with physically approaching the spiders. Really interesting. That's really interesting. Like, it's really fascinating to kind of think about how, how this all comes together and how all these aspects come into play. Like where stories can make such a huge difference for children. Like there's all this research that just these small tweaks here and there, these things that you can teach them and how much of a difference that can make for them. Um, go on. Sorry, Hannah. No, I think, and what it really comes down to is voice. It's, it's, it's providing them with the ability to use their unique voice to be better heard, better understood. And that's what fosters connection with other people. And I think really that's what it comes down to is to the, the ability to communicate their stories. What does life look like for them? Awesome. Yeah. Um, one of the things I'm spotting on the wheel here, Helen, is the word or, um, and it is something we hear in schools quite a lot 'cause there's that whole thing of awe and wonder. Um, and I think it's probably maybe an interesting to chat about, um, it's something that you kind of mentioned last time. We talked about story and you were talking about it, awe, in relation to story. Do you want to just talk a little bit more about that and explain it to us before we kind of wrap the webinar up today? Always defined as a feeling of reverential respect mixed with fear or wonder. And you're absolutely right at the moment there are, there's a lot of sort of buzz around awe and wonder. And, um, I did some research on it after we spoke because I'm very interested in the, in the concept. And there was a lovely article for spirituality and health. There's a writer by the name of Ruth Wilson, and she cited some research carried out by a man named Jeff Thompson at Columbia University, um, about how all narratives, so all stories can literally transform your life. So what is an or narrative? I I, you know, people might ask, so, or narratives are basically stories in which we recall and reflect on, or experiences. So the research mentioned shows that telling stories of this nature can enhance mental health, it can enhance resilience and overall wellbeing. And the research also shows that developing all narratives increases the ability to elicit further awe and to live an awe-inspired life. Mm-hmm. So there's an author by the name of Paul Psel in a book titled Awe the Delight and Dangers of our 11th Emotions. So this is the, the emotion that they've identified in our now researching very strongly. Um, also writes about the power of awe and the value of ex of recalling experiences that elicit feelings of wonder. He explains how all experiences can enrich our lives, not only at the moment that we experience them, but as memories that we carry with us over time. And I love this. So there's an environmental psychologist cited in the same article, Louise Chola, and she says that these memories of all serve as, and I love this description, radioactive jewels buried within us emitting energy across the years of our life. Isn't that so incredibly powerful? Yeah, it's True. It's true. Because you think about those really, really beautiful, lovely childhood moments. Like, you know, like I had a lot of times on the beach and singing and barbecues and in the sea and all of those kind of, yeah. Wonderful. They keep you warm inside, don't they? Right. Absolutely. Absolutely. I, I think there's that wonder, and then I think there's the, that that awe, that is sort of those life changing moments where you experience things that are sort of quite infinite, you know, that are, that are, that are huge. And, um, what they said that, you know, the, the way that the all stories work to change us is that they often involve a sense of vastness that puts into perspective your own relatively small place in the world. So this vastness can either be physical, it can be like a, a sort of a panoramic view from a mountaintop, or it can be psychological. So you'll hear about something some exceptionally courageous or heroic act of conscience or, you know, something. And it, and, and it actually shifts the way that you understand the world. So what it does is it might make your everyday concerns seem sort of less important, or it might expand your, your views on, on humanity, um, and, and human potential. And, and it's interesting because actually with these current events, what I found myself doing, because they are have been awesome on a, on a horrific scale, on a on on that level, what I found myself doing is in my life, you know, something would happen or, or come up and I would think, that's not a problem, Helen. You know, that's, that's, that's not a problem. You can solve that. And, and what it, what the events did is, is really shift my perspective to, you know, what, what matters at this point and what doesn't, right? What, what are other people experiencing? Um, and so that's interesting because that it is really perspective shifting and, um, you know, the stories of awe often shared going back to connections. So they, they're often communal experiences and events that we partake in. And, and again, this leads to, to a greater degree of interconnection. And, you know, we as people really, we are basically just a collection of interwoven, interwoven stories. You know, we're a tapestry, right? Um, and if only we were more cognizant of this, I think. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. I always think if I'm having a particularly bad day, um, somebody said to me once, they said, your worst day, the worst day you could ever had is somebody else's best day. And it's so true. Like the worst air could possibly have you give that day to some of the people that are experiencing what they are now with what's going on. They would just think they were in heaven, wouldn't they? No, it is, it does put things into context to make you a lot more appreciative of what you have, doesn't it? Absolutely. And that's, and that's the, that's that ability to step into somebody else's story, isn't it? And that's what brings us, um, you know, there's the empathy, there's the humanity, there's the compassion, there's the perspective. It's all, all of those things. You know, people, I think they often think of stories as, as entertainment. Um, they, they are life that we are all merely a collection of stories and they, they, they're constantly working to change our lives. Really. There is so much power in contained within them. Yeah, that's true. Um, so Helen, you kind of mentioned earlier that you had some main points for us to take away and think about in terms of stories. Do you want to have a chat about that now? Yeah. So firstly, so if we think about stories, so they're a start. So they're a springboard, so we can use them to explore worlds. We can think about where and how you can jump off, what can you further explore together. So if you think with children, something like the hungry caterpillar, you have something familiar that you can explore and do you have the food, you can cut up fruit, you can cook sausages, you can bake cupcakes, and then you have nature. What about the leaves? What about the trees and the forests? What about the moon? What about the lifecycle of the butterfly? Not just the science, but, uh, the change and the growth as concepts and how they make us feel, make the freedom at the end. And, and what that means. What does freedom feel like? Um, maths, symmetry, art, the beauty of the butterfly. Creativity and patterns and new beginnings. So there's so much, if you look at just that one story, there's so much contained in that. So we, we just need to begin to, to see it. The second thing is stories change us. So Sula le Guin quoting William Blake, um, said that the windows of our perception are cleansed by poetry and stories. And then storytelling is a tool for knowing who we are and what we want. You know, if we think about our lives as stories, what, what is the plot? Who are the characters? What edits do you need to make? Do you need an alternative ending? If we, if we view our lives in that way, it's very powerful. Um, stories teach us, and I, I think this is really key at this point in time. If, if you want to know more about certain political situations, but you know, you're not gonna make it through a long nonfiction book. What I would encourage you to do and people to do is to find fiction, find historical novels, find films about different periods and events, and then do the factual research to find out what happened. But, you know, inform yourself from different perspectives and talk to people about what you're reading and seeing and learning what I feel at present with the polarization in society where we are not having these across the aisle conversations anymore. And the algorithms con constantly direct us to more of the same, more of what we're already thinking. And they shore up our already, you know, held opinions. The middle ground is disappearing. So if you want to be and to stay informed, the story work is essential. And, you know, just thinking about doing this, this podcast with you, I was thinking the other day, you know, in, in old fashioned debating teams, the debaters would be required to switch sides and argue the opposing side just as vehemently and convincingly as their initial stance. And it's really frightening to witness this current climate where students and people, they, they're not robust and resilient enough to cross over to the other side just in terms of ideas. So, you know, people will now say, oh, well, you know, that's, that's triggering to them. But, you know, crossing over is, is being able to understand the story of the other. What would that story look like? What, what would I feel like or, or do or think if, if this happened to me? And so that consideration and flexibility and curiosity and creativity that comes from being exposed to the stories of others and remaining open to the stories of others, um, and, you know, remaining open is what combats the sense of certainty and militancy that I feel we are, we are encountering today. And I think one of the reasons that I think a lot of people feel hopeless when we, when we witness this judgment and absolute certainty and this sort of rigidity of thought is that it's not hopeful. Mm-hmm. So there really isn't any hope in it because people have essentially decided what they believe and they've closed the case. And hope actually allows us to be open. It allows us to think and to consider options to acknowledge complexity and nuance and to explore and hope, you know, it, it, it's, it's creative. It looks for ways for things to be better and it's solutions focused. Yeah. Yeah. No, I really like that, Helen. Um, so how do we work with children to get them to be open to the stories of others? Okay, so this is what I touched on briefly is, is teaching children, it's, it's a really good question to take. Teaching them to take a 360 degree view of a story. This is how we combat propaganda and the projected realities of other people. So what we do, it's, it's really necessary for them to have an informed and nuanced view to be able to make good decisions. And so this involves considering situations from different vantage points, as I mentioned. So for example, I think I touched on this briefly earlier, you know, what did a story look like for the protagonist? What does it look like for the antagonist? What does it look like to one of the minor characters? You know, think about the Christmas story. Let's tell the Christmas story from the view of the innkeeper. Let's tell the Christmas story from the view of the wise men or the donkey. You know, it's, it's just shifting that, that perspective so that they have an opportunity to explore what somebody else might feel. Um, if we show them that the same story can look different to different people, they'll begin to develop this critical thinking and they'll begin to consider what they're told to ponder and to question and, and to therefore come to, to more informed conclusions. And, you know, in closing, Kate, I just wanted to mention a couple of things that I feel are so important sort of on a spiritual level mm-hmm. In a recent podcast I was listening to, it's, it's such a lovely podcast with the author Kate de Camillo. Um, she wrote Desper and, and other wonderful books, and she was chatting to Krista Tippett from on being, and she said something so profound, she said, our job in life is to see and be seen. And you touched on this briefly earlier about being, you know, when you were talking about being heard. And you know, the way that we, and this is what I mentioned about the, the evening with those friends, um, you know, the way that we are seen and, and that we see others is through our stories. And children are always, always asking to be seen by us and in their storytelling, which is done in many, many different ways. Essentially what they're asking us is, do you see me? And we allow them to be seen by saying, I'm here, as we said, and I'm listening, and your story is safe, and your story is sacred in this space. And it, this has in so beautifully what Kate de Camillo said. Um, when I was writing the book, I happened to just turn on CDS news one day. And, and Oprah was talking and she was talking about people who had been on their, on her show and their behavior. And she explained that without fail all of her guests from those she considered to be quite ordinary to President Obama or Beyonce. Once they had finished talking and sharing their story, they would turn to her, they would turn to her and ask, was that, okay, what was I, okay? And she said that her takeaway from all her years of experience was that all people want to know really is, did you hear me? Did you see me? And did what I say mattered? Yes. Yeah, yeah. You know, we, we, we all just wanna be seen. And, and, and I'll close with this, you know, we, we have a moral imperative to see the stories of others and to model this curiosity to the children in our care. And, and we have a responsibility to reflect on our own stories in terms of the level of truth contained within them, uh, being brave enough to own them and tell them e even the ugly and the painful parts. And I, I really feel Kate, like presently, the stakes are so high because really the opposite of hope is fear. And, and the world these days can feel very frightening. And this leads to increased levels of insecurity and anxiety. So we need to hope, we need to teach our children how to hope. And this is fostered through connection and through comfort, through conversation, through imagination. And, and this is where healing begins, and this is where peace is found. Yeah. No, that's brilliant. That's a really good message to leave people on too, Helen. I think it, I think, and I think we're in a very privileged position in that we are getting to work with young children to, to form that story for them, like, and to make that difference. And I think it, it is worth taking into consideration all the things that have been said today and thinking about how we can bring that into play and what we're doing. So, so yeah. Yeah. Thank, thank you. You're welcome. Yeah. Lovely To be here. No, it's been great, Helen. Like it is been such a joy, like getting to chat with you, so, yeah. Yeah. And I think, I think there's a lot that people are gonna take away from today. Um, so just before we go, Helen, um, I've seen your book and I think it's just beautiful. So I'd just like to give a little shout out so that people know that this book is out there. Um, but if I bring the book up, do you want to just read a couple of pages, because I just think it'd be lovely for people to see what you've been working on. Um, sure. Okay. Can you see that now? Yep. Yeah. Lovely. So if I flick through, do you want to read a few pages and just kind of say a little bit about the thoughts behind this book and why you've created it? So, um, this, this book I was written by me and, um, I worked with a lovely artist called Jose Fragoso, who's based in Spain in Madrid. Um, and he's, he's a wonderful illustrator. And, um, yes, so I wrote it because, you know, as we were saying, I'm really passionate about the voices of children. I mean the voices of people really. And I think throughout life, our, our lives throughout life, from the time that we are born, um, oftentimes, you know, our, our voices are, are silenced, uh, in different ways, uh, due to, you know, the societies we grew up in, the families we grew up in, the, you know, different circumstances and situations. And I'm really passionate about children being able to raise their voice, uh, to understand that their voice is unique, that it matters. And that's really what's, what's behind this book. Yeah. Lovely. Yeah. If I flick through, um, yeah, do you want to just read a few pages, Helen? Sure. So I will speak of things big and things small. I will use my words or say nothing at all. I will speak to say yes, I will speak to say no, I will speak to say stop. I will speak to say go. I will speak when I'm scared. I will speak when I'm shy. I will speak when I feel not to let things pass by. I will speak up when people appear big and strong. I will speak up for those who feel they don't belong. Yeah. So it kind of gives feel just a little bit of a gist of what's in there. But, but yeah, it's, it's beautifully written, Ellen. It's really lovely book. So, so yeah. And when is, is the book gonna be out for people to buy? So we're working on it being published at the moment, so I'll, we'll have to watch the space. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And we'll put out, we'll put it on social media when it's out there ready to go. So yeah. Thank you. Lovely. Thanks Kate. Yeah, thanks a lot there, Helen