Very excited to have you here today. Um, um, we were just chatting before we started recording actually, and I was saying that I first came across Laura about years ago when I was lucky enough to go along to one of her TA training sessions. And I highly recommend this. Probably don't do them anymore actually, Laura, do you? I do actually. Oh, good. So if you see any, if I'm doing a training or keynote or if you want to organize an inset twilight for your setting school, please contact me. Um, but yeah, my teacher at the time was a massive fan of yours and I know you're still working together. Um, so since then we've crossed paths many times and I've followed Laura, who is a big inspiration to me and also many, many others. Um, Laura is an award-winning international producer, storyteller, educationalist consultant. Um, worked as a nursery manager, Ofsted inspector. I've written these down 'cause there's many of them. Oh No, not Ofsted. Yeah, maybe we don't link that one in. Um, and also supported and collaborated with lots of names you'll recognized. So nursery World Department for Education, BBC, national Literacy Trust, early Education, and many, many more. Um, and also she's a bestselling children's book author. Um, so many of you will know the BBS jojo and Grand Grand series, which is much loved by my own daughter Ivy. Um, this was created by Arthur, but she's also worked as a producer on it. Um, Laura advises on children and family issues, which we're gonna talk about a bit more later on, and a big advocate for play. Um, she was a commissioner on raising the nation and national inquiry into play. Um, so I could go on. There's so many amazing things that Laura's been involved with. I'm super excited to have her here today. So welcome Laura. Really, really. Thank You. Thank you. Kay. I always almost felt that you was reading my eulogy there. No, and it's a pleasure. And I think one of the things that I love is that although, you know, I'm a children's author, children's TV content, I am still an early years person and that helps me quite a lot in the other bits about that I do. Um, early years is something that I'm still super passionate about and always will be. So I must always still keep on talking about, um, children and families because that is very important. And there's always something to do. There's Always Totally, totally. So that's it. Um, so yeah, just I'll kick off with a question. Um, so you are a big inspiration to lots of people, um, but you left school with virtually no qualifications. Um, you're dyslexic and you speak about this, um, and also mother to two sons, one of Whom's autistic and now you're traveling the world sharing your story. You're an author, speaker, consultant. Can you tell us a little bit about your journey to where you are today and also where your passion for storytelling came from? Yeah, I think that's, that's a great question, Kate, because I think, firstly, I'll answer it back to front. I've always been a storyteller. Um, that's always something that's been in my family for, for years, you know, um, they always told stories. My mom's from St. Lucia, so they didn't have a TV growing up, so it was always telling stories. So I would sell more storyteller than an author if I'm telling stories verbally, if I'm delivering a keynote. But essentially storytelling, then writing books, articles, et cetera. But leaving school at, hardly any qualifications. I didn't know then until my early thirties that I am dyslexic. I think I always vaguely knew. And a lot of people say, wow, you speak, you are very articulate. You write children's thoughts. How can you be, how can you actually be, um, dyslexic? Every autistic person is different because we're all unique. So how my dyslexia has an impact on me is my grammar. I've got verbal dyslexia, the way I pronounce certain words, handwriting and spelling, but reading of always loved. So when I left school, I worked as a clerk typist for a couple of years and I just thought to myself, I love that job. And I'm still in contact with a couple of the colleagues who I worked with many years ago. And I just thought, is this it? And it was very repetitive in terms of what I was doing, typing reports, admin work. And I thought, do I wanna do this for the rest of my life? It got to the point, and if the listeners may remember, we had this, you was able to dial, uh, a number and you'd get music before we had the internet. And I would be on the phone listening to this music and think, thinking to myself, you know, this was lovely. Then I'd say to my boss, you know, I'm on the phone to a, to a client, et cetera. So I think for me, um, then I applied. I just thought, this isn't going to be for me to a college, a local college. And in those days, the only qualification was the NNEB nursery nursing. It was oversubscribed at Ton College. And I got in, I remember doing a circular team interviews type style thing. And I remember talking about children and when I worked as a, the two week placement I did at school, which was in a day nurse, and I think I shared something to do with a child then, and then I got in. I don't think I got in on my, the literacy angle because that wasn't there. So maybe the lecturers saw empathy in me, passion, et cetera. And then when I started it was, hallelujah, this is where I need to be. I loved it. I mean, I went over and aboard the different placements of anybody's familiar with the NNEB. We had so many different placements. I went to Great Ormond Street special Needs school day nursery, nursery class infants, nanny, and I absolutely adored it. And then when I left, worked in different day nurseries, um, head, I rose quite quickly to be a manager in a nursery. Um, then I left different qualifications, a lecture in a college, Offstead Local Authority. And then around years ago started freelance training UK and overseas, um, working with brands, writing articles for nursery world, other early years magazines, and just loved working freelance and just doing what I do. And then the, the book work that was bought from doing some work with the BBC and just saying, I've written this book about a little girl and her grandmother. We got a few nos and then eventually, um, got a yes. And then five years ago in March, it's been on CBBs just before we went into lockdown. Now globally it's many children are enjoying the story, which is personal to me 'cause it's based on the relationship I had with my grandmother. And my middle name is Josephine, hence Jojo. So, so that's where we are today, I suppose, you know? Yeah, we were looking at pictures of you the day actually with, um, I was saying I was gonna speak to you today to my daughter, and I was saying that you'd written jojo. And she was like, is that jojo? And I was like, I think she bless Her. Yeah, yeah. When I'm at an event and um, I say to to children, I explain, I say, this is me. I am, I'm jojo. They sort of like, look at me because they don't make the link, you know, I say, this was me when I was little. And then we talk about again, you know, sort of like want for a better word, the cycle of life. You know, did you have pictures of you when you were a baby? And then I say, can you believe it? I was once your age. And again, they look at me and say, you're owned you. Yeah. Thank you children. Thank you. Next question. Yeah, Absolutely. That's it. And I think the message that's coming out of that is just about passion and joy. Absolutely. Yeah. That's absolutely Of what you're doing. So yeah, And fusing together my early years work, because actually technically that's why I said in the beginning, I'm still an early years person because what I do in terms of writing children's books, it is for early years children. Although they go up some of the nonfiction books, you know, to key stage two and three in some aspects. But I am still, um, that early years person how I went into age starting the NNEB course full of enthusiasm and a, a hunger for more information how children learn and develop. I was always fascinated with that child development aspect of it. Yeah. That's it. Yeah. And that will come through in your books too, I imagine, Nora? Absolutely. I think it does because when I'm writing a book, I always think, oh, will a -year-old be able to understand this? Will a -year-old be able to pick that up? And then I can remember sometimes different things if a child has said something to me, the rhythm and the flow. And with Myron, while in the great big tidy up, somebody pointed out to me recently, oh, this is really good. Because it talks about the awe and the awe and wonder and the critical thinking and getting to children to be solution driven with their own ideas, you know? That's it. Yeah. Yeah. It's good stuff. It's good stuff. So, yeah. Um, I was gonna touch more about your author work because you've obviously an author of lots of books, um, on creating jojo and Grand Grand. Um, and I'm a big believer, and I know you are too, about the power of story for change. Um, and I'm really proud to have been able to help a little bit with your book about families, um, with my own story about Ivy. I dunno if people know out there, but I have had Ivy with a donor, so I'm a solo mum by choice. Um, and I think for me it's very important seeing that representation of different families, especially just doing ordinary things. Um, so I'd love to kind of know your purpose for writing and how you see your different stories kind of impacting children. I always say that Freud would have a fill day on me because actually many of my books, if it's fiction books or nonfiction, I do, do you know, other books that I'm, um, apps, you know, creating currently. But it comes down to family. And I've been doing some work with the founder in museum near, um, King's Cross area, because we know the found Lynn was Thomas Corrum, where babies quote unquote were just left. And that was very emotional the first session I did last week actually. And my story is, is that it's family, so jojo and grand, grand grandmother, granddaughter, ma and Marley, their brother and sister, a TV show that I've got in development, it's about a family unit. And then my nonfiction book is My Family, your Family. And within there it was that representation as much as I could to say it's not always a mom and dad and two children that live in a house. Um, and that is okay. I'm not saying that that that is, that is absolutely fine, but I think it's very important that every single child is able to see themselves within a book. Yeah. And it touches that sweet spot for children. We all, all the listeners will recognize this, that it's actually all about children's self-esteem, children's self-worth, and all of us that have worked with children in whatever capacity, it's all about how can we make the life of this child better? What do we bring to the table as an educator? You know, as a teacher, and I always share this when I'm being interviewed, there's research by Dr. Rudin Bishop, and it was done in the nineties, years ago. And the research, quite simply, I always say I'm like a translator to all this academia work. Yeah. It's mirrors, windows and sliding doors. So the mirrors is, is that children are able to see themselves in the book, like your daughter Ivy, in terms, because I talk about donorship, you can say, well, okay, this looks like my family, like me with my mommy donor, et cetera. And then for other children, it's okay, this doesn't look like me or my family. And then we have the windows and that beginning of the curiosity happens to start looking through that curiosity to think, oh, this isn't like my family, but there's a little bit of similarities, but there's some differences. And then the sliding doors. So they go into that world and then really and truly look at those differences and experiences. So one of the things I always say, especially with jojo and Brown Grand and some of my books, they're not just for this particular child. So they're not just for black and brown children. They're not just for children who may be raised with two moms, two dads, um, kinship care, et cetera. It's for every single child for children to have that understanding where they are on that global Yes. On within that global village. And I always say diverse books are even more important for children who do not live in a diverse area. Very important, you know? Yeah, I to totally agree. And I know for me, uh, when like if you look on our bookshelf, we've got so many different books about different family makeups and we're always reading about different families and different situations and things, but often some of the more difficult conversations I'll have to have with Ivy's around what her friends are asking her. So it is that maybe those stories aren't being read in the other children's homes or they might not have an understanding of why she hasn't got a dad. So, and like you said, like my family are in Wales and it's a very different situation up there again that it's like adults are constantly asking me and being like, what my goodness, I've never heard of that. Whereas in East London it's, there's loads of us, so, So yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And geography's always interesting, isn't it? That comes back to my point that every single child. So I think what I would say is that it's about, you know, then having maybe conversations with your child's nurseries in school about then the value of having diverse books in terms of that conversation starter. And I know with my family, your family, you know, a manager in an early years setting because of her background with her children, it was a blended family. Like she said, she used the book as a way of sharing with her child about their family background. So it wasn't, you know, you are donor, it wasn't that your dad actually isn't your dad, that's your stepdad. You know, it wasn't that we are a two mom family, it was using that book as a way of storytelling to have those open-ended conversations. Then bringing it back to, you know, look at this, every family is different, every family is unique and this is our family. And so I really do feel that's, the books are super powerful, um, and I think we'd sometimes take it for granted whether or not it's a fiction book or a nonfiction book, how much learning and um, understanding and empathy that we can share with children from reading just one book, you know? That's it. Yeah. Um, and also, I know in your books just give a little bit of shout out that you've got guidance and questions and things for practitioners that then they can think about when they're sharing those books too, which is really useful. Absolutely. And in my skin, your Skin and my family, your family, there is the glossary at the back. And then I have also two created free resources for both of them that's on, you know, to explore further in terms of conversations and talking about resources. I created, um, for my publisher Ladybird last year, a free early years reading timeline. And one can get it as a hard copy. I'm just trying to look, can I find it around here in notes in my bag downstairs? And so we can put that up for anybody. So if you can, if you just Google, there are other search engines out there, um, early, yeah. Lady Bird, early years reading timeline, and it goes from birth to five. So again, using my early years expertise, you know, if your child is three, this is what they're doing developmentally, and then these are then some top tips. So again, a lot of the, what I do is I'm always thinking away, oh, I could probably create a resource for that. I could just to make it, you know, because sometimes some educators and teachers think, oh, this is really good, but how are we gonna translate this into practice for children, you know? Yeah. That's good. Um, I think you've covered my next question, Laura. So I was just gonna say, what's your advice to practitioners in setting about how they use story with children and families? So I dunno if you wanna add anything to that. Yeah, I think, yeah, I think it's about finding it. I think coming back to, again, early years starting with the child, that's, that's always our mantra. Start with the child. You can't go wrong. And what are your children's, what are the, that's your key children? What are they're interested in? You know, is it anything that's going on for that child? Is it bereavement? How can you use fiction books and nonfiction books? But I always sort of sit on the fence a little bit with following children's interest a hundred percent in terms of what we were just previously talking about. Because if it's a child, you are following their interests and they don't live in that diverse area, um, they're not going to be exposed to the diversity and inclusion within children's books. Yeah. So I would say that that's the reason why educators and te must have those propagations within their setting. Yes, you have your continuous provision and a term that I use, which is Sainsbury's old strap line, heading, try something new today. So you've got your continuous provision, what's going to be new for your children today, as well as using books within that. So yes, follow children's interest, but you cannot a hundred percent, you have to plant those cheeky propagations where they're going to be learning about other cultures, other families, et cetera. Yeah, no, that's really important. That's really important. Um, I've heard you mention as well in other chats, uh, the importance of the voice of the child, which links really nicely with this conversation about kind of following children's interests. How do you interpret this and what's your advice to settings to make sure that they're supporting individual children? Yeah, I think on my trials, I see there, there's great practice out there and we're probably preaching to the converted here with the, the listeners. And not to sound patronizing, but I think it's really understanding your key children. And it brings me back to Edina Goldsmith's work on the key person approach and attachments. It's more than observing a child can hold a pencil today, you know, what they had, um, for lunch, snack time. It's really knowing your key children inside out and having that level of professional curiosity, um, knowing about their family, who the child lives with, recognizing that sometimes on a Monday, that child comes in crying. I was in a, a school last week in an office visit and I said with, I stood at the gate with the head teacher welcoming the children, and there was a child that came in a bit flat. And I said to that teacher, I'd be interesting to see what that child's day is gonna be looking like, because the child that will speak volumes, how that child is coming in at the beginning of the day. So when I'm talking about the voice of the child, the the child age stage and ability approach may not be able to verbally tell you how they're feeling because the child may have, um, um, a disability or, or special needs where they can't vocalize that. It's picking up everything in terms of how they're interacting with other children, with other parents. And really using that to say, well, how can I support this child? Sometimes it could be just sitting down and having a snuggling with that child and soothing them because there may be something traumatic going on for that child at home. And I, it brings me in there about the voice of the child, um, one of my all time favorite books for the last four or five years by Dr. Bruce per Oprah Winfrey. What happened to you? Yeah. And I share that a lot within training, coming back to the voice of the child rather than saying, if the child's having is being dysregulated, what's wrong with you? Taking it back to that empathy, what happened to you? 'cause as we know, all behavior is communication. So that professional curiosity, what is going on for this child? What happened to you? And what can I do as this child's key person to make sure this child is emotionally safe, knowing where that child is at in their development? What do I need to do to support them more, for instance, with their communication and language, with their physical development. So really it's like a, a personal plan for that child. I quite like that. Actually, that might have to be on a slide for my next keynote colleagues. That's good. That personal plan. Let's make a note of that. I've got short term memory colleagues, I'm writing it down. Take a Little clip out for you, we can add it, add to your Back stuff. Yeah, that's right. I can use that. Actually, I love using video clips in a keynote. That personal plan. Amazing. Yeah, That's it. And actually what jumps out to me about what you're saying is that earliest practitioners are often very good at that, particularly in settings where there's a real ethos for play and they have that time to do that. So I think that sometimes when things are a lot more formal and there's a lot more structure to a day, and there maybe isn't that time to go, do you know what, I'm just gonna sit and have minutes with this child and you're not having to run off to a session or, then I think that's actually something that's really important and often something that we do really well in early years as practitioners, that we have time for children to really engage with them. But I don't Yeah, I agree with you. I I think that's really good. And then sometimes the busyness of the day. Yeah. And I've done training before where I've, I've got educators, I've set them sort of like a propagation a call to action, to, to really look at what they're doing during the day, how many times are they stopping, is it necessary? And that's why I'm a great advocate of when Eleanor Goldsmith actually talked about the key person time. So look at, you know, I've seen some, some settings and schools do it really well. So either just before lunch or in the morning, it could just be reading a book with your key children and it creates that sense of belonging so children know that they belong. And there's sometimes that bud up where two key persons come together with their group of children, and children know that this is their group, that this is their sense of belonging and have that time to check in. And, and that's what I would get, um, colleagues who are listening to this to think about how many times throughout the course of the day do they sit down with their children to have that check in. Are you okay? And it can sometimes be five minutes, minutes and then, you know, choose a time that suits the rhythm and the flow of your day. But I think in order for, you know, yes, it is good to be open planned, yes, it is good for children to have that free flow, but we still need to have that bit of structure in there for some, again, that's gonna benefit a lot of children. So I think the same time every day for that key person time, because I've been into some settings and the story, it is just too big. There's too many children. And I then recommend that it needs to be smaller groups. Why don't you use this time to have your key personal time? You know? And that fits really nicely actually with the next question. Um, because lots of our settings are talking about rising numbers of children with additional needs. Um, and I know this is a topic that you are really passionate about, um, and that you've supported many settings with this, so I'd kind of love to hear about any advice you've got practitioners out there and have you used story to support children with additional needs? Um, yes. I, I, I have definitely. So, and I think, again, because of my son, me being dyslexic, having, um, more one-on-ones. And for instance, I was in a setting, and again, this child was probably about three and a half, and we were just sitting down looking at books, but using board books. So these books, quote unquote, were baby books. And this child just loved lifting the flap in terms of that cause and effect. And that was okay for that child with this book. And then we went on to other similar board books. So I think again, for, for books for Children with disability and special needs, I think they are fantastic. But it's about finding those books and allowing the child, depending on their need to self-select their own books to read. You know? So I think, um, I think definitely so, and they're not equally true with my books when I'm working with the illustrator visually, making sure that we can see visual representation of disabilities, you know, in terms of a hurt hearing aid, somebody using a wheelchair, somebody that may have, um, you know, in terms of there's a disability on their arm or their leg. So visually it's there in terms of that inclusion. because when I was growing up, it wasn't, there wasn't any disability. It was just white, white children, white families that live in a house and a book now that I love. I, I actually on my podcast interviewed the, um, the author, the Nisha Butterfield, and it's called the Flower Bark Block. Mm-hmm. It's like a modern day jack in the Beans stalk. And it's set in a, um, a council estate tower block. So the, the flowers grow at the top because in plus apartments where, you know, a couple of million pound apartment blocks, you may have a flower garden near my publisher in Voxel Penguin, Le Penguin, random House, Ladybird, there's two blocks of flats, apartment, apartment blocks you'd say be posh. And, um, there's like a swimming pool that goes across to apartment blocks. You look up me, oh, I've seen this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So again, it's thinking things like that. You don't see that. I know the question was on disability, but I think on representation of working class communities. So in Anisha's book it was all about, well, actually we don't see this. We, they can say, have all the excuses for not having, uh, a garden on top of a tower block in a council state, but in an apartment block, it's, yeah, okay, we'll we'll do that. How wonderful it is for wellbeing. So it's about, her book is fantastic, and equally to my book, um, Myron Marley and the Great Big Tide I include within the, um, the street sweeper crew. So again, working class careers, you know, That's it. Yeah. And one of the, um, we did a talk recently and we, there was a lot of feedback and a lot of kind of information about just people being represented, just doing daily things. Exactly, Yeah. Not like, you know, okay, this person's black and we're gonna talk about that, or, you know, this person's disabled and we're gonna talk about that. Or, you know, this is my hair or this is my wheelchair, or do you know what I mean? It was kind of that this is just someone playing with their friends and having a Exactly. And equally with Jojo and Grand Grand, it's just their grandmother and a, a grandchild, ma and Marley, two children who live on an outdoor adventure playground. And I think that's, that's really good in terms of the, the joy, because I think if you strip it back to all communities, we all do similar things, different activities, you know? That's it. That's it. Um, I know that you are a big advocate for play. I'm just gonna jump onto the next question. I would love to hear more about your work as a commissioner on Raising the Nation National Inquiry into play. Um, the interim report was out in February, but I'd just love to hear like your take on it and some of the main messages that you think maybe we should be talking about. So yes, Kate, I am one of the commissioners and I'm delighted because there's so many other experts on there. It's just a wonderful group of people like myself who are super passionate about play and looking at the reasons why that's not central to children's childhood. So some of the things the commissioner are looking at, so Paul Lin Lindley, who actually, um, he was the instigator for this report, um, who's a fantastic colleague who started off Ella's Kitchen, which is the food baby food brand, and is doing so many other fantastic things. He's got a book, which again, um, looks at the state of the, the nation. Yeah. So what we're looking at is learning through play, places to play the right to play time, to play digital play, and parents and play. Over the last year, we have been looking at that, um, there's been a call to evidence. So anybody was interested, we're able to submit their ideas and solutions. We've had online meetings with, with experts. We've had meetings as well. And I just feel it's, it's the right time to have this conversation in terms of, of childhood and some of the many issues that are going on for children and young people. We need to be bringing it back to play. And I think what's really good is that we're also to looking at, um, different communities. So for instance, one of the thing in the interim report was that children from underserved backgrounds have less opportunity to play because of not having that access to outside outdoor plane. And myself, because I'm quite old, I was raised in the Council of state, but we had a park. Mm-hmm. We had an adventure playground, and we just went outside to play. There was no, we used to make up games, we used to play run out. So, you know, using our, you know, in terms of our physical development, we were running, we were playing, we were, we had solutions. We didn't have much. But now children don't go out to play. There's no going to knock for your best friend, Mohamed and Fatima. And that's for a variety of reasons. Some of it is safety, you know, because a lot of parents are concerned with, with safety. Um, we used to take ourselves off to, to primary school, even though it was just across the road and different types of things. I think children are more protected now. So it's about how as a nation we can make children, um, that play central and within schools as well. So it's not just about, um, playtime because there are a lot of children who are denied play. And that used to happen to my son who's autistic. And as we know, that's the worst thing to do for children. Yes, yes. Is to restrict their play time because obviously you are going to get, they're gonna be even worse because they haven't had the opportunity to run it, run it off. And I saw on the socials when around the playtime thing, there was a couple of teachers commented on a different platforms and one said, oh, I bet you none of them have been a teacher writing that. And I thought, well, hello. I have, I didn't obviously comment because I didn't, it didn't serve me to comment. I was just reading these, um, reflections from others. And I thought, well, as a teacher she's got a valid point. But actually maybe it's an issue around personal and professional development for teachers looking at the biology of children, looking at child development and having, developing that understanding that actually you are making it a lot worse for children by not giving them playtime. But then equally too, it's looking at what play looks like within the classroom, not just at that designated playtime on why is it that playtime has shrunk, you know, we've got less, less playtime. Um, now we've, within schools, there's playing fields that have been sold off, you know, and equally too, how can we make sure that adults have that understanding about what play looks like and can adults still enjoy, enjoy play. So I think it's a, it is, the final report is coming out in June. And I, I'm, I'm hoping, and I'm really optimistic that the government will make changes. And the other thing to think about is United Nations, the rights of the child, the right to every child to be able to, to play. And I think we need to have to be brought into the conversations would be the Department of Education and offset. So offset in terms of when they're inspecting, but what changes can the Department of Education make to the national curriculum and the earliest foundation stage in terms of play, what we really mean and how are we making sure that we are being right, that we are, we are doing right by children. Yeah. Yeah. You're right. And, and I think there was something key you said there about actually about good play. Uh, it doesn't, yeah. I mean, often I know for me, I've been looking for schools for my daughter and I've, I've visited some schools up in Wales who were doing amazing things with their curriculum around play and being up till seven. And I was thinking about possibly a move up to Wales because of the system for my daughter. But there were a lot of schools that I walked into that I was like, this isn't really play. Like, there was some amazing, amazing things happen, but I think it's that understanding of children being able to make choices and being able to have that real time engaging with their friends. And it's not just putting some jula on a table, do you know what I mean? Not that there's some great things about construction, but I think it's that real choice and good provision and actually having some really good quality time for children to, to play, I think is really key. Absolutely. And I think, I think what you hit the nail on the head there, um, Kate, it's about the adults understanding about what plays. 'cause likewise, I've seen, um, situations in schools, early years, settings looking at photographs and thinking, well, that's not play. I think the conversation needs to start with, well, what is play? And you know, in terms where every single child against different cultures, 'cause there's so many different layers to play as well. But I think what's crucial about this document, this um, this evidence gather gathering now period that we're in, is we're having a conversation about it. Because I feel that having a conversation is the beginning of making changes. Yes. Which I think is super important. And as I said, I am optimistic that changes will happen and every child gets to deserve a child, a childhood. Because also too equally it's, you know, for some parents financially, because we know for certain families they can take their children to have those play experiences. And for some children they're not go because financially, and as we know, there are some children that live in hotels, you've got four people or even sometimes six living in one room. And the impact on children's development. So we need to look at equity, we need to look at inclusion, we need to look at culture, we need to be looking at, um, how racism has an impact on how children play within their communities and safety as well. You know? Yeah. Um, we did a webinar once and we looked at the map where you could see play shrinking over the decades. Yeah. And it's, it's really interesting stuff when you think about like, our grandparents would've roamed for miles and gone fishing somewhere or, you know, gone out and sort of, you know, two, three miles down the road to see their friends and there would've been that freedom and it's just shrunk and shrunk and shrunk for children so they don't go past the end of the road anymore. But, but yeah. And there's many that will sit in on computers and screens and, and it's, it feels safer for the parent, doesn't it? And I get that. Exactly. And there's a lot of colleagues doing some groundwork. I think it started in Bristol initially where streets are closed off so there's no traffic going down. And I thought that's a really good idea for some children to know within that boundary, whether or not it's a street or a few, there's gonna be no cars going down and they can play, you know, make up games. And it's, you, we used to play this game in our park where you'd have, there was three swings and there was three baby swings that used to call them. So we'd sit on the swing and there was a little fence cornering off the swings. Somebody would be with a ball. Mm-hmm. You would have to kick the ball mm-hmm. Um, on the swing. So you'd got the person throwing it and that they might say, you don't know who they're gonna throw it to out of the three of you. And you would just kick the ball and the other people on the other bit of the fence would have to go and find the ball. Yeah. And we caught that game, the swing game. Yeah. Yeah. That's it. Yeah. We used to make it games and stuff, and I remember being a child and like running in to have your dinner and all your mates sitting on the curb outside waiting for you. Like Yeah. Like every night you would be playing out in the street, wouldn't you? Exactly. Absolutely. Especially now with, um, you know, we're coming into, depending on when the colleagues listen to this, um, we're coming into spring, summer, you would just be out. There would be games with water. There would be some you get up to mis We we would, I did, we did some things as children that we weren't supposed to do. But isn't that the value of childhood in terms of No, well that's not right. You learn, you make those rules up, you know, but no, that's gonna get us into travel. Yeah. And I, I remember there's a colleague called Dr. Jan White. I dunno if you know, she does a lot of work on outdoors. Okay. And I remember speaking to her once and she went to a conference, um, in Europe. One of the professors, somebody was there from the insurance community Okay. Who did a keynote and said what they're finding there's a lot of claims coming through of children, not of young people, rather workplace because they're having too many accidents because they haven't learned Yeah. To regulate and to understand what a danger is. So we have a lot of children and who are gonna be getting into, um, adulthood without not assessing danger and play gives you that opportunity to assess danger. Yes. Yeah. So again, it is, yeah, it is a safeguarding, it is a, uh, a wellbeing, safety issue for children, isn't it, Ann? Um, will you tell me the name again? Laura, Dr. Jan. Jan White. She's done many books for Elia's Education where I'm the vice president for, and I think she's a visiting professor at one university. I don't know if she still does, you know, keynotes, but that was her thing was on outdoors. And I remember having a, a conversation with her and her sharing that with me about this conference. And it was interesting that they brought somebody in to say that children are having accent. And when, when Myron Marley is based on wide venture playground, when I had the launch, I had, um, the ex play workers there who worked there years ago. And we had hammers. There was no, probably no checking of health and safety. We used to use hammers. We, we used to make fires. And Maureen, when the leaders said, no child had an accident, the only child who had an accident was her own child. Mm-hmm. So that speaks volumes. We just assessed our own danger. Yes. You'd come home with scrapes and you were just full with mud and earth from the adventure playing ground and you just, we just cracked on. Yeah. Yeah. So I think within that play, it's about the wider thing on children's learning and development that happens when children are playing. You know, That's so interesting you say that. Um, so when I worked in schools, we developed a playground and a place where I worked and we had kind of hills put in big rocks. We had stream, we had a huge climbing tree, a huge big sandpit that they could dig big holes in. And um, there was a small patch of undeveloped playground that there was kind of where the parents would come in with the buggies in the gate. And we had one accident. And all the time I was there and the child fell over on the one little bit of undeveloped playground that was flat concrete and broke her arm. And we had all these rocks and climbing trees and all sorts, and we had no accidents on that. But yeah, so, and actually we used to work with an expert then, and he was saying that parents, they see these big climbing rocks and all this stuff and they get really scared of it, but he said there's no more danger in that than there is actually on a degree concrete curb that they're walking past every single day at the end of the road. So yeah. And he said they're way more aware when they're climbing a rock, then they're out walking on a pavement. So Yeah. So that does make a lot of sense. Um, right. Okay. So we both share a belief in the power of writing. Um, as an author, I know you travel all over speaking to children and adults about the books that you write. Um, and recently you've launched a new podcast in response to the decline in love of books and reading. Can you tell me a little bit more about this and why it's so needed and how practitioners can encourage children's joy in books and this desire to write their own stories, which is kind of really important to us. It tells toolkit. Absolutely. And I think for me it's about doing my bit as an author, as a parent, as an early years educator promoting reading. 'cause there is that decline because, um, statistically I shouldn't be an author, you know, working class dyslexic, et cetera. There's no way I should have any business writing books. But I did, and I had a love of books because of my local library and because as a family of, we used to have always had books loan from the library. And for me it was always about knowing as, as an author, I get to go to many different schools, museums, festivals, and libraries, sharing my books. I know that there are a lot of authors that don't get the opportunity, especially if they're immersion, especially if it's their first book out, they're not always going to get that opportunity. There are many schools, early year settings and other places where children and families go to where they don't have the budget for an offer to go into their school. So then I just thought, okay, then over the last couple of years, there must be something to do about it. Just a little small thing. And that's where I came up with the podcast. My words, my book, interviewing authors, um, tapestry have created the resources. So after every episode there is a resource that supports the podcast, um, for children to use. So it could be they're using it at home, um, or in schools, and it's co-listing, co-viewing. So it's about then getting the child, chil getting, it is about getting children exposed to different authors, um, and knowing what the authors are passionate about, the rationale for writing this book, what was their favorite book as a child, et cetera. So we don't need to therefore say it is o'clock, let us stop what we're doing because we have to listen or watch this podcast. It's an evergreen resource. And so, although they are going to be released at three different times of the year, probably about, um, different episodes, um, where it is evergreen, if there's a particular theme or anything coming up, they can use that podcast as an educator, teacher, or parent to support children with the learning and with their, to support children with their learning and inspire children to write, inspire children to, to read more, to find out. So I just think it's, it's a small way of supporting children with their reading and writing. Yeah, yeah. That makes a lot of sense. That you can kind of feed them in as and when you need them to fit with topics that you are doing or conversations. That's right. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I just think it is so important. Um, I know the book, trust, literacy Trust, the Center for Literacy and Primary Education, they're doing so much wonderful work with supporting this initiative to get more children reading. And there's so many different research on this and reasons why it is. And we touched on play, didn't we? The conversations around screen time. But we can't just blame screens by itself because I think for me, I'm one saying where this, you know, let's span screens, that's not the answer. I think it's an we need to share and educate parents as the value of screens and the value of, um, you know, Tales Toolkit, the value of, of Audio Box. Mm-hmm. Um, and that's to me, why this podcast? I think it's, um, it, it, it's come at a good time, I would say. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's good. And we'll be putting a link, um, underneath the webinar so that people can have a look at that too. Um, so just the next question, uh, thinking about the education system as it currently stands, this is a big question. Um, what would you change and how can we as practitioners out there help you with this? So what are the first small steps? I think we really need to look at what is education? Mm-hmm. What is education and is it serving children that we have a Victorian education system? Is it fit for purpose now? I think that's what we need to look at. And I am, before anybody emails me, I am an advocate for education. But I, years ago, um, some of the listeners may remember Tony Ben, he was a politician, um, labor politician, his wife called Caroline Ben. So after I did the NNEB, I went back to evening classes probably about years after the NNEB. And I did, um, an access course into education just a bit more just to help me with essay writing. And Tony, Ben's wife, Caroline was my lecturer. And one of the things that she, that Caroline said was actually, um, this was probably going back years ago, in the future, what we need to consider, will children need to be in school Monday to Friday? Will it be that they'll be given their information? She said a small computer. Then obviously there wasn't the concept of laptops and, and iPads. And when we look at, um, Kate now remote working with so many adults doing, like my son, he's home today working. He does, he can work from home two days a week. Um, there's so many jobs that people do where they don't have to be in an office Monday to Friday. So I think for me, I personally believe that yes, children do not have to be in school Monday to Friday. Now I know many schools that are finishing half day on a Friday, and for children in their school community who are vulnerable need to be in school for the Friday afternoon. The teachers take it in shift. It doesn't necessarily mean Friday afternoon that, um, teachers go skipping off home, start their weekend, you know, they might stay in school. That's not gonna, because as you know, as teachers, there's always something to do. Right. To do. Right. So it could be marking. Yeah. I don't see many Teachers skipping off at a past three. Exactly. Absolutely. That doesn't happen. That's why I say to people, I say, you know, teachers are, are in school sometimes from seven till seven. Yeah. They, this, I dunno where people get that idea from that that teachers only work part-time. It's a joke and it's an insult to them. But I just feel that we, and actually there is a private school brand, the name escapes me. They've started a hybrid. Hybrid or hybrid, my verbal dyslexia there, um, concept where parents can choose two to three days of their children attending. Yeah. Well, I, yeah, sorry, button in. Um, there's a flexi schooling now. So I was looking for my own. Um, and there's a lot of schools that will do it and there's flexi schooling groups actually, um, where they'll help you in terms of getting your school on board with doing it, um, where you can send your child and you kind of decide the days that you send them. But not every school has to accept it and they don't have to accept it for every parent. So it's a real case by case thing that you can put forward, but you can put it forward, I think to, to any school I think, don't take me on that. Yeah. But I think for, for me then now it's about then with so many parents choosing to home, educate their children, so many parents are choosing to do that. And I'm sure if we was to do a survey research and speak, speak to those parents, some of them might say, yes, the flexi schooling the option and of sending my child to school, um, two days or three days, especially if it's a child, um, who struggles in school that arrangement. And I remember when I did a keynote last year talking about my personal experience raising a child of autism, A head came to me and said to me afterwards, or we've got a child, mom has requested that the child only attends school three days a week, two days at home. I know that's the best for that child, but we can't do that because we have stats to prove. So therefore then we have to think, well who is, who is it for? Because it's not for that child that's gonna make that child's self-esteem, self-worth wellbeing a lot worse. So I think there's two things is looking at education and seriously looking because, you know, in say 20, 35 years time, I think why are we holding on for this? You know? And I think because of the workforce, how employment is changing to that model of hybrid, we knew for instance, when five years when we were locked down speaking to companies and they said, if anybody had said to us, right, we want all our workforce to work from home. I remember her saying to me, it would be like a five year, 10 year strategy. But we did it overnight. Yeah. Up and quick. Yeah. And we'd still got work done. So I think, again, we know that there are colleagues, and I know I don't want anybody emailing me what about our vulnerable families? Yes. I know that I've worked with vulnerable families as well, but I think as, again, there is that conversation for children in terms of that safeguarding element for, for vulnerable children. But then I think that comes back to the point that I made where we, that unique child that that is, that's what we need to go back to. So again, looking at children's needs, serious propagation that children do not need to be in school Monday to Friday. It's a Victorian model going back to why were schools set up, you know, This is it. Yeah. And actually there was a lot of conversations after Covid around getting back to normal and getting back to like it was before. And I remember at the time there being a lot of conversations around, well, we don't want to get back to normal 'cause normal wasn't good enough Actually. That's right, yes. For us, create something that's better. And I think that's kind of got lost a little bit, but I think that conversation should still be happening. So, um, yeah, I think that's a great thing to say. Yeah. I think, yeah, you are right in saying that it's about whether or not it happens, but at least there is that conversation around it. It is that research because I think there is that, there's so many, I went to something a few weeks ago where it was all about making sure children are in school. Which I think, yes, but I think the question is never, well why aren't these children in school? It's, there's, there's reasons why. And I think it's about those solutions about saying, well, we have to recognize that it doesn't work for every child, you know, and I just feel that model where some schools have that Friday afternoon, um, that could be a solution whether or not it's an afternoon or a day, but let's consider it, you know? Yeah. That's it. Um, is there anything I haven't asked you about that you'd like to say? Yes. So Thursday, the 12th of June. Um, 'cause I'm all about promoting, I'm all about supporting children with their reading, supporting families earlier settings in schools. So I'm hosting a webinar, it's free colleagues, it's free, no money. Who are we? Like anything that's free and it's titled it Takes a Village, how can we all support Free School Children with their Reading? Okay. And so it's Thursday, the 12th of June, it will be on the socials. They, you know, colleagues can email me and on this webinar I'm going to be having an assistant head talking about what they do because I've been into their school. So they work very much with children in their early years and their parents a year or two before they start school to support reading. Um, I've got a head children's Liberian within a local authority sharing what they do, a child minder. Um, there'll be publishers on there, an author like myself, a nursery, preschool, and a parent. So in terms of it takes a village because we always see reading incentives either this is what a nursery, this is what an early year setting can do. This is what a school must do, this is what a parent must do. So I'm taking that village concept that it's all of our responsibility. So on the actual webinar, we will have, um, parents on there, early years, colleagues, teachers on that. So that's Thursday, the 12th of June, seven 30 to nine o'clock, spread the word and doing it this time just before, as you know yourself, those transition meetings happen end of June, beginning of July. And the other thing is I'm gonna be creating a database full of resources for earlier settings for schools and for parents as well. I will definitely be tuning into that one, Laura. So Yeah. Yeah. My, my, my girls start reception in September. Oh, wonderful. That's gone quick. Yeah, that's gone quick. It's gone really quick. So I am one of those parents, so yeah. Yeah. That's good. Fab. Brilliant. Um, I'll put that as well, um, in our email stuff like before June. Yeah, Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you. And thank you Kate for all that you are doing in terms of supporting children with their communication language and literacy. Oh, thank you. That tells toolkit. It's so wonderful when I'm in a setting old school and I see the little, the brand, I'm like, Ooh. So that, yeah. Well we're doing some exciting stuff with them and we've just started working with Chicken Shed Theater. Oh, Beautiful. Yeah. So they're putting on a Tales Toolkit show and they're gonna be going into some schools and doing it. Um, and they're gonna be doing it at the British Summertime Festival, the British Library discovering Stratford. So yeah, so there's some kind of new little bits happening now and we're also are doing more with, um, special needs. So, so we're really excited about doing stuff there. And we've got a school, which is in Kent that does it with, um, children up to 19, so Oh, wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Exciting. But, but yeah, it's just, it's always just getting the word out on things, isn't it, Laura? Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. No, that's fantastic. But thank you so much, Kate. It's been, um, lovely for you to interview me and thank you to all the colleagues who have listened and, you know, I am in awe of anybody who works within early years and within the education world because it's making a difference to children and their families, you know? Yeah. That's it. That's it. Massive thank you to Yeah, massive, massive thank you to you, Laura, too, for joining us and speaking to us tonight. And I know that lots of people will be very excited to hear you speak and also come along to your webinar too. Oh, yes, absolutely. Because it's free as well. And I think, again, that's the thing for me is to, to make it free, in fact. And the, and the, the speakers on the panel, they're giving their time up for, for free. Um, and I think to have a parent on there is going to be quite, you know, profound and, and amazing in terms of sharing what she did with, or she does rather with her children in terms of supporting reading, um, because there is this gap now and making sure holistically, yeah, books are there because books are my bag. Excuse the pun. We're all good. We've got books and stories going on on this webinar. Absolutely, absolutely. Absolutely. But thank you, Kate, again, thank you. Lovely!