Super excited to have Sue here today. Um, this is something we've been actually talking about for quite a long time, doing a webinar about building a village. Um, and this is something that's really close to my heart. Um, I dunno how many people out there know, but I'm a single mum by choice. So I've had my little girl Ivy with a donor, so it is just me and her. There's just the two of us. Um, and I think there was too many years of teaching and not enough years of dating that kind of went into that situation. Um, but um, it's something that's really important to me because I have a wonderful community of single moms by choice that I connect with on a regular basis. And my friends are my everything. Like I have wonderful people that have supported me through my journey. And, and also I think through the years of teaching for me as well, I kind of went into parenthood probably with blinkers on and thinking that it was gonna be something I could do quite easily. And it's really not, being a parent is very, very different from being a teacher and working with children in that way. Um, and it's tough. It's really, really tough. It's very, very hard and something that I think you need your village for. So I'm really excited today to be talking on this topic with Sue. Um, so I'm gonna hand over to you, Sue, cause I know that's who everybody wants to hear from. And, um, really excited to talk about this today with you. Right. Well, what I was gonna start off with was, was explaining why I found myself telling people you've got to build a village. And it started because back in the early two thousands, well actually it was, it was actually the end of the, the nineties. It was my 50th year. Mm-hmm. I suddenly did a complete change from what I'd done previously, which had been an education and started researching, um, child development, particularly because it was really clear by roundabout 2000 that the world was changing incredibly fast. And there were all sort of ways in which children's lifestyles were changing. And I started wondering, could there be, you know, knock on effects if we, we do things differently. So I talked to, oh God, it was schools and schools of experts, at least three real sort of national international experts on each of the areas downside there. And they told me staff, which I then turned into this, this book. Um, and, um, my publisher said, you're gonna have to give advice. And I said, I don't really want to give advice because I parenting, you've gotta do it yourself and you've gotta come up with what, what works with you and your family. I, I really haven't liked parenting books very much. I mean, back when I raised my own daughter, there were only two. There was Dr. Spock and Penelope Leach, and basically they both said much the same thing. So it was, but nowadays there's all these different people saying different things. But, um, anyway, I did, because he told me I had to, I did put some hints and tips in that various experts had told me anyway. Um, the main thing that was worrying me was, oh, sorry, was updated. Yeah. The main thing that was worrying me was that as the lifestyles change, our biology doesn't, and absolutely dreadful to admit having been in education for such a long time. But I didn't know anything about child development really until I started researching this and discovered that the reason we su survived as a species for so long is, is three big things. One, we're so social, so we are able to collaborate and cooperate. And two, we have this capacity to learn and adapt to changing circumstances, which means that, you know, as lifestyles change, we can adapt what we do to, so we, we should be okay. But it means that most of the genetic material that is involved in helping us be like that can't stop working until the child is actually in the world. So they've gotta be interacting with other people in order to develop the social skills. They've gotta be interacting with the world to, to develop these learning skills, problem solving stuff. Um, and it's really those first seven to eight years that the un defines early childhood birth to eight that are particularly critical for lifelong wellbeing and learning. So the more you find out, they now call it biologically primary knowledge. It's, it's stuff like obviously language, but it's also physical skills like coordination and control, and then learning to use those in terms of self-regulation so that you're able to identify your emotions and, and cope with them and find strategies to deal with that. All of these sorts of stuff, social skills, cooperation, collaboration, problem solving, developing empathy, it goes on and on and it can go all sorts of memory skills and so on. Um, and unless those are, are properly developed, it's going to, there's gonna be issues later along. I mean, one of the big ones is emotional resilience. Um, and we go on and on at the moment about mental health problems among children and young people. But so much of the emotional resilience that we need is developed in these early years. So we've gotta get it as right as we can. And what I sort of noticed was what I called a perfect storm, actually for, for childhood in that three cultural fronts had all collided. And the first one fairly obviously, it sort of happened, really, you noticed it by the end of the eighties, beginning of the nineties, suddenly technology was taking over our lives and changing it all the time. There was a, I'm, I'm actually a really interesting visual aid in this respect, because I was born in the same year and the same street as the computer. Alan Turing was putting the finishing touches to the first one computer on one side of the road. And I was being born on the other side. So for the first 30, 30 odd years of my life, I didn't know it was there, it was developing so slowly, but it was, it was on a sort of curve like this. And in the 1960s, this guy called Gordon Moore said, um, the power and potential of digital technology would double roughly every two years. And that's been known since Moore's Law and is held pretty true. Sometimes it's 18 months, but it, it is just going like that. So it was really the eighties or nineties and, um, we weren't noticing what was happening at the time when I was writing, the three things that were bothering me were, first of all children having TVs in their bedroom, which they don't usually do so much now because they've got their own handhold device. But, um, what had happened was parents, the, the TVs were getting better, so parents were buying a new TV and giving the old one to the kid, and children were disappearing into their bedrooms. And because their computer games worked with the compute TV as well, they were disappearing up there for, you know, years. Um, I got one little boy that I interviewed in London and he said, oh, I love being a 21st century boy. Um, I sit in my room and I watch me telly and I play my computer games, and if I get hungry, I text down to me mum and she brings me up a pizza. And I thought they can't healthy. Um, but those were the sorts of things that were bothering me. But the mobile phones were the thing as, as well that parents were concerned about the totally primitive ones then, but it was because kids were actually using them to phone a lot, which we don't do so much now because the, the, the advice still is don't hold a mobile phone to your head for any length of time until you're at least 14. Um, 2006 was the year the book was published and I'd had a researcher working on it for me at the time, cause it was so much work. Had three researchers over the, over the eight years, uh, and James was at Oxford. And when I went, went down down to give him his copy of the book, he said, oh, it's about time I read a book again. And I said, my boy, you're at Oxford. You should be reading all the time. He said, no, there's this thing just come over from America called Facebook. He said, everybody's obsessed with it. So that was when I realized the next thing was gonna be social media. And my goodness, it was by the time I was doing a book on girls, the amount of problems we were getting with girls and social media. The iPhone didn't come in until 2007, but since then, smartphones are everywhere. And, uh, the iPad was 2010, and I think we've not had another huge, um, revolution, but AI is gonna do it, isn't it? I suppose ele, um, the, what's the name, Alexis or whatever her name is that people have, um, so, and the huge tellies that we've got nowadays. But in the end, I think the major problem is summed up beautifully in that picture. Mm-hmm. It, it does separate you off from other people. And, um, I think the best hint and tip I got from that was from an IT chapter chap a, a lecturer in it in in Winchester who said he and his families had just decided they'd have a basket in the hall and at family mealtimes and bedtime. And any other time you're doing a family event, everybody's sticks, they handhold devices in the basket. I mean, you've gotta have all these little things that you do, but it's also sort of working on trying to work out how to deal with screen time. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and one of the major ones there I think is it, well it, when it used to be telly, um, used to be able to say, only Look at what's on the telly and choose which programs you want to watch. Don't just do general grazing nowadays, of course with all the streaming services and Disney plus and so on. Mm-hmm. I think you've gotta start thinking about certain times of the day that you're allowed to, you know, and, and choose your things. That's gonna be the next thing you watch rather than just the graze, it's the grazing. That's the problem. Yeah. It's a, it's a really hot topic and I know it's something I talk a lot about Sue, just in general life with lots of different people. And it's something in my own parenting that doesn't sit right with me because, because I'm a single mom and, and my daughter isn't the easiest if I'm really honest. Right. She's sparky and curious and fantastic in many different ways, but she does not sleep and she's never slept. So she doesn't go to bed until half nine and I get maximum a 20 minute nap out of her. And, and she's very emotional. Like she's, she's great. Like, and she just wants to play with me all the time. And often the only way I can manage my day is to try and throw everything I've got, engage in her to make dinner with me and to play with me. And she cooks alongside me and we do things together. But then I have to do this period after that where I put her in front of the screen and I clear up all the chaos that's been created and Yeah. And often, like I've been out where we'll go for dinners or we'll go for things, um, like when we went away with the single moms for a big holiday and there was times where the children would sit in front of a screen so we could talk to each other just for that mental space for us. Um, I know for me it's not a tool that she's gonna learn from in the same way as a social art interaction. Right. For me, social interactions come first. Like, we play a lot, we talk a lot, we have stories at dinner. We don't have iPads or anything like that at dinner time at home. It's always like a time where we share books and do things together and, but there are a lot of times in the day where I feel reliant sometimes on screen time, um, just to be able to manage that day. But I don't know what, what are your thoughts on, on screen time and how to use it and how not to use it? It, I just think you have to, you have to find your own way through it. But yes, with friends as well. I mean, get friends tips and hints as well. Um, but I, I mean the advice I always have rollout is the American Academy of Pediatrics said yes, yes. In the first two years. You want minimal. Yes. You want to keep it as little as possible and try not to use it as a classifi. Yes. Yes. So certainly don't give, if you can possibly avoid, don't give handhelds and things like that. Little ones, if you get away with that, um, and limit as the time as much as possible. They, they've now relented a bit and said, obviously we, we over lockdown and things mm-hmm. Uh, grandparents and people were FaceTiming. I mean, you've got to do that. I mean, and it's, it's true. It's, it's, so they've, they've said, you know, if it's an obvious thing like that, but try as otherwise as little as possible under the two between, I think it's two and five, limited to a couple of hours a day if you possibly can. Yes. And again, make, make that choice stuff. Yes. And I think by the, the point is my lines always be been up to seven mm-hmm. Bearing in mind that that's when our biologists still basically the same as bro magnan man. Yes. You keep it as real as you possibly can. Yes. Never going to be able to avoid it. cause it's there, it's part of our lives. Mm-hmm. But keep it real. Yes. If you possibly can and get them outdoors as much as you can. Yes. And that's why now that summer's coming, it is gonna be a bit easier. Mm-hmm. So if you've got a garden and you've got a couple of kids Yes. That they can play out together mm-hmm. Soon they'll be old enough to, you know, make sure it's safe. Yes. And then, and then after that, I remember one, one mom saying, um, she'd got two boys and there's one was about four and the other one was about seven or something like that. Mm-hmm. And she'd been to one of my talks and she said, so I went home and I said, you're going out to play in the garden, out you go. And he sort said, no, we wanna play tv. And she said, Nope, out in the garden, go on out. And she said, I was in the kitchen and they were standing there gazing bail fully at that, at the, I left. I went and back, he said, I noticed that the little one had been scuffing with his foot. Yes. That the big one had noticed that he was scuffing up stones and they started pulling up stones. Mm-hmm. And they were building things with stones and she said I couldn't get them to come in. So they do find things to do when they, they do. And I think that's the big thing until the 1970s or so mm-hmm. All kids just went out to play and parents were able just to say, go away. Play with your amazed Yeah. And there wasn't this issue that we've got now that they're stuck in because of course you can't let them the traffic outside. No. So it's finding ways of, again, loads of moms who told me they've got their village together of other moms and dads and people, and then one person would take a whole load of them off. Yes, yes. Um, and I think, you know, the, the lovely thing that you see with the, the, the, the coun, the Nordic countries is because they have such long winters, they will have lots of really good outdoor clothes and they can't see any reason why they can't do it in the winter as well. Yeah. Yeah. But, um, it, it is get them outdoors as much as you can and they will very often just to, I I, we had, um, we had to do a photo shoot for Upstart Scotland, the campaign that I run. And, um, for some everything went wrong and it ended up with the night before we didn't have any kids and so we had to put a message out on Facebook. If you've got child between three and seven, please can you Yes. With eight children who had never met each other before, between three and seven, a cameraman and the mums and me. And I led them all into a bit of, um, wild land of near Edinburgh. And I'm thinking, oh my God, this is going to be disastrous. Yeah. And I said, oh. And they said, what should we do? And I said, oh no, just go and play. And they sort of ran off. That was amazing. Mm-hmm. These kids have never met. Yeah. No time at all. They were building things, they were climbing, they were inventing things, they were finding stuff, the moms, and I just stood mm-hmm. Watching. We, we couldn't believe it. It is what they're meant to do. Yes. What their brains are screaming for all the time. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So we've gotta we've gotta give them that because that's the best way for them to learn all the social skills, all the problem solving the, the about how the world works. Yeah, it's true. Yeah. So it's, it's find find ways of getting them outdoors and and keep it real. Yeah. And then once they get older, have times when you don't do telly, you know, family Well, or things like family movie nights where you all watch together Yeah. Or family game nights and things like that. Just making sure that there's other, other ways of mm-hmm. And course encouraging things like reading, once they start reading and, um, drawing and making things and sports. Yes. Yeah. That's True. Yeah. One, one of the pluses for me having late Bunny, um, that doesn't go to bed till crazy o'clock, is I've met a load of mums that have children the same. And often we will go out and play in the streets at like eight o'clock at night. And, and it's actually a really lovely connection for me. That's been great that I can go home, make dinner, do that chaos, and then go out afterwards and have a chat with some mums. Wow. But I'm very lucky, I live in East London and it's quite rare for East London, but we have a little square where there's no free traffic. Oh, fantastic. Yeah. And it's surrounded, like we're in a row of sort of terrace houses and then there's flats all around, and obviously those flats don't have gardens. And those children will play out in that square a lot. And the amount of children that have been knocking on the door for my daughter to come and play from being sort of 18 months old, and they'd be like, is Baby Ivy coming out to play? And We'll kind of go out on the street and we organized a Play Street event where we got the community together and we all bought different toys out and we kind of closed the street off. And it was just, it was lovely. It was such a nice evening. And we've said we're gonna do it again this summer. But, but I had a friend grant as well, and he was saying do those things in the winter too. He, he was saying that he had children that had the little head touches on that would go out in the evening when it was dark and play on the streets with head touches on. And, and so there's, yeah, I think getting out is really important, isn't it? And also I think when you are out Yes. And it's, it's the Say that again. Sorry. Sorry. So there's the, the mixed age group business thing is really apparently seems to be important too. There's a, there's a brilliant book called The Nurture Assumption. Mm-hmm. Um, Judith Rich Harris. And one of the things she points out is that from the age of about two mm-hmm. In, in, in previous societies everywhere across the world, mum would usually have another baby by that time. So the older baby would be just given to the bigger kids to look after. Mm-hmm. And it'd be an age group about, between about two and about seven or eight, because by the time they got to be eight, they, they were big enough to help with the family business. So they'd be actually doing things like, you know, going to, to the well or whatever. Whereas that little group probably throughout history, the, the three to seven to eight year olds have been together, which is why I think this sort of kindergarten idea that they have in, in the Nordic countries in Germany is, is so important because with small families now mm-hmm. But we need to be with other kids. Yes. So the, the, the village, you, you, you need lots of other moms and families and dads that can, can work together. It, it, it's pretty obvious actually. Isn't I better move this down thing on. No, But it's really, it's really, it's really important. cause I think you saying that, I know for me my times of just going, oh, and having like a breath is when I'm with other mums and other children, the children will go off and play and I can sit and have a chat and event and a and a and a moment just to breathe and be myself again. So, yeah, I think that's really important to have that, that kind of where they're playing together and they're engaged and it's not you having to engage with them constantly. Absolutely. Yes. I think that's really, really important. But, um, And, and as you say, you, I mean, even under the age of two, they're, but from about one, they, they are able to engage with, with other kids of their mm-hmm. Own sort of age as well as with the bigger ones. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, the, the, the second cultural, um, force again hit in round about the eighties and it was when the free market consumerism became the driving force on the planet. It became international. And of course we're sort of ruining the planet through it as well. But it also had an incredible effect on childhood because it was mediated by the screens and the marketers cottoned onto the significance of children very early. Um, the big thing was to win them for the brand as soon as you possibly could. Mm-hmm. I remember one research study, I read it back from America, they, all these children, three year olds, 3-year-old children, they found many of them salivated at the, the site of a McDonald's wrapper, like a Pavlovian dog. Um, so they're, they're desperate to get children on board as soon as possible. And it's not just for the things that the little one will want themselves. They realize that children affect family purchases. So an awful lot of the adverts are aimed at the kids. And there was one period and a car ads fascinate me because sometimes they aim at women, sometimes it men, but very often at children, um, because they weren't the children. Parents often buy the car that the kids say. It's quite ridiculous actually. But I mean, I read marketing manuals, this chap, um, MC CLE McNeil was one of the key ones. Kids are the most unsophisticated of all consumers. They have the least and therefore want those. Consequently they are in a perfect position to be taken, which is absolutely grim. It's language of war, isn't it? Um, they're after your kids and if they're watching an awful lot of staff with adverts, they are being got directly by people who are trying to influence them in wanting things. And that's, as they get bigger, as yours get bigger, that becomes one of the major things is the wanting stuff. Um, the two people I interviewed mainly on this were Susan Lin and Juliette Sho, both of whom had written books on it. And Susan actually set up, um, an organization in America called The Campaign for a Commercial Free Childhood, which is still running and and worth Google when you got a a minute. They made a very good film in the early two thousands, which I shared with loads of parents. But, um, spit out a date. Now it's still still worth looking at because the, the, the techniques haven't changed that much. But Susan once went and smuggled herself into a marketing conference and actually got this quote down Verbatim advertising at its best is making people feel that without their product, you are a loser. Kids are very sensitive to that. You open up emotional vulnerabilities and it's very easy with kids because they're the most emotionally vulnerable. I think it's absolutely horrible. But huge numbers of psychologists who really should have been working for public good have been showing marketers and clinical corporations how to, to take children. And I think those need to be well aware of it and aware that, you know, it's, it's not their kids that's at fault here. The people who are the hidden persuaders who are getting out them from beyond the screen. Yeah. Um, and then the other big thing that changed life was, um, the, the huge changes in parenting because of genders and, and you know, very often mom's Right. Raising children alone. Um, I was probably one of the first of the moms who got to work at home. I was really, I felt really lucky. I know that I couldn't, I couldn't have given up my work. Mm-hmm. Um, I'd have gone mad, but at the same time, you, you know, you want to be with your kid, it's really difficult. Mm-hmm. But, uh, as, as rules have changed and parenting's become all these other changes, it's been stuck inside because of traffic and so on. Um, the advice on parenting has not changed. By the time I got to the parenting chapter, I was terrified. But actually it did turn out to be quite simple. It is this business of balancing warmth and firmness and it is so difficult. Mm-hmm. Um, but it's being warm in that you are, you are obviously trying to show your love for your child all the time. Loads of cuddles and so on. But also listening to them and letting them have their say. And if there was one book that I would recommend to everybody that I came across, I dunno whether you've come across it yet, but I'm trying to remember the name of the authors. But you don't need it 'cause you can Google it. cause the title's so memorable. It's how to talk. So kids will listen and listen. So kids will talk. Have you seen it? Yes, I have. I just found, found that one, it fitted what mm-hmm. This business of being warm but firm, it fitted it perfectly. Yes. And it is just making sure that children have had the chance to, to say their say and, and taking it into account, but also being able to say, but I'm the grownup and I do know that this isn't, so how are we gonna deal with this? Yes. Um, the problem that, that's called authoritative parenting, and it's the way it works. Mm-hmm. The problem is it's very easy to go too far on the firm side and children feel that you are just telling them what to do, that you are, you don't love them, you're just a boss. Mm-hmm. Um, that doesn't work as well because they're more likely to either kick against it or very often go off the rails in teenage years if they, um, everyone says it was the authoritarian parenting after the war that led to the 1960s. Richard probably did. Um, but I think we've got, the problem we've got now is that the culture itself is because of the advertising. All those people that are saying, yes, buy your child this, oh, we'll need this. Oh, of course you've gotta have one of these. All that is being is pushing all the time to a, a warm and not firm. And it's trying to keep back on the other side of that so, so difficult. And then of course there's the, the least successful sort of parenting very often relates to parents simply not being able to cope for themselves very often due to poverty. Although I have to say, um, the first time I ever put that slide up was in a very, very, very posh prep school in London, um, a prep school I've been to. And when I, I said that at the end about, it's, it's very often amazing children. The teachers came rushing up to me afterwards and said, you know, if both parents are out earning shed loads of money all the time and children are being looked after by a Filipino nanny who doesn't speak an awful lot of English, and she leaves them up in their bedrooms all the time with all their equipment. Yes. That's just, yeah. Yeah. Yes. So, but it's trying to sort of, as my secretary at the time when I was drawing that diagram, said Yes. I just say to myself, stay in the top left hand corner. Yeah. It's gotta be in the right area. Yeah, it's true. And it's so, so difficult. Yeah. It's so Difficult. Yeah. Well, I know as well as, um, as a parent, there's so many people constantly judging the way you parent Constantly. And I think that's one of the most important things about finding a village is that you find those people that parent in a similar way to you and agree with similar things To you. Absolutely. And, and you talk it through and they, they help you and you help them. Yes. It is just you, it's so desperately important now that you do have, you, you, you know, your your own group that is your tribe. Yes. And, and, and you're, you're together. Um, and that was why I started thinking, because when I was going around telling parents always stuff mm-hmm. Um, oh, sorry, hang on. No, I've, I've got to say the two big ones. Um, when it came down to it in terms of what children actually needed for a healthy childhood, particularly in the early years mm-hmm. It was two ingredients. There were only, there were two, both of which were four letter words to the marketing then. Mm-hmm. Um, the first one is obviously love. Yes. And the second one is play. Mm-hmm. And I put the love on the nurture side there because it's, it's a lot of that is really, the kid's gonna laugh you. It's your love that really matters. It's what the way you are demonstrating it. Yes. And I really like a line by Uri Brenner Bron Brenner, who, uh, did the, what was it? The ecological development theory. Um, he said, someone's got to be crazy about that kid. That's first, last. And always it's the being crazy about them so that they just know. Yes. Because, um, in terms of resilience, Harvard has a four point list for long-term resilience. And the first thing is that the child feels loved and cared for by the people that looking after it. Mm-hmm. Um, and John Bowlby, the founder attachment theory, uh, he used to talk about your internal working model so that the child's developing its own feelings theory of how the world works and have their place in it. And if they feel loved, they feel lovable. Mm-hmm. It's really important for that sort of feeling of self work and expecting other people to like you and all the rest of it so that it's huge. And the same with the play because that is their internal learning drive. So they need to do it from the minute they're born. And it's really fascinating to watch. It's starting with imitation and I got the joyous thing with my first granddaughter being given a minutes after a birth to look after and thinking I can do that thing I've seen on the videos and she put her tongue back after me. It's just absolutely amazing. Um, so they're playing from the minute they're born and then that's how everything gets, all this biological primary knowledge is learned, they've gotta be able to do it themselves. So those two things become totally important. Yes. Especially outdoors, especially social. Um, and that's why when I, I was telling parents about it, the, it was the, the words, the only one came up so often. My tongue's always telling me he's the only one who hasn't got a mobile phone or whatever it was. Um, and of course they will tell you that, and very often it's a fib, but that's why you need your village so that you all can think, right. What is a good time to get the flipping bone? Mm-hmm. You know, it's, it is all very moot at the moment, but when do they get one? Yeah. You and your mates decide it between yourselves and stick with it, and then they can't be the only one and the other business of Yeah, I would love to let my child watch play, but she'd be the only one. You've got to have a group of people that, you know, they're there. So Yeah. It does it, you can't do it on your own. And I mean, obviously family are important. Mm-hmm. Um, but it's those friends and I, I watched my daughter do it. She, she, she really, I, I think she probably would've done it even if she hadn't met me before. Um, but you know, it's finding people that she met even way before the baby was born at Antenatal and things. Her probably her best friend now still is someone she met in the labor ward and then going to things like, um, she went to infant massage and met more people and it's gradually building this, this group. And they're just always there for each other. Mm-hmm. Many of them now living a distance. But you, you know, know still turning up. Yeah. No, it's so important. And I, I know, I know. cause with my little girl and your daughter might have seen it a little bit with my little girl because of COVID, a lot of that was stopped. And so there's a whole group of parents now that didn't have those connections and then went back into work when their child was a certain age and missed out on that entirely and haven't necessarily built those networks. But I just wondered if you have any advice, especially in those positions, but for settings out there that are working with families, is is there things that they can do to support building? I've never thought about it, but I mean, I think settings can probably find ways for doing it. Oh gosh. One of the things I have learned in my, the last 20 years is the people who work in earlier settings are really, really clever at working out that sort of thing. Yes, I do. I I, yeah, I, I would talk to my, you know, talk about it with people at the nursery or, and, and say, you know, is there, could we have some sort of, um, you know, opportunities for parents to meet and chat and so on. Mm-hmm. Or they'll come up with things mm-hmm. Get them involved. Because that's the other thing I love about the, um, when I've gone to Finland and, and seen their, their terrific, um, they call them, uh, daycare centers, but I, I call them kindergartens cause that's a sort of generic term, and they are real centers of the community. Yes. And it's, it's the, they've got all this knowledge that should be being spread about. So I think you would, you know, your, your local nursery or there used to be Sure Stars didn't there. Yes, yes. Gosh, we certainly need those after COVID. Yeah, We certainly do. And I think, I think in, in that situation where, because of COVID, the first kind of face-to-face contact a lot of people will be having is when the child is three and they hit nursery. Then I think, I think in some ways there probably is an extra responsibility on the settings to try and help build some of these networks in for those families. I think the settings are very aware of it, but I don't know. I capacities there's huge issues with the NRI at the moment about funding and paying people and getting enough people for the expansion that's happened. Yes. Unfortunately, our government is, are really stupid in terms of not recognizing that money puts in during that period's lives. They give it all the way through. Yes. All Yeah. Which is why I'm now involved in campaigning mm-hmm. About early years provision. Um, because it's just, of course, you build your own village, but you really do need the support of the culture. Yes. Yes. And our culture in the UK is appalling in terms of its attitude to early childhood. I mean, it's, it's, they treat early learning and care as though it's just babysitting when it's not. It's early learning and care, learning and care and it's really, really important. Yes. And they just think it's there to get so that parents can go out to work. Mm-hmm. And then as they go into school and they immediately start treating them at the age of four or five, and so their school children and, and judging them against age related standards and, and forgetting that what they really need at that age is, is play. Yes. Yes. And actually that comes back. Yeah. It's often like when you were showing that grid with the parents, and if you've got children that haven't had that love and that play and that environment for them at home, then it's all the more important to provide it when they get to school. Like it is all the more important for those children. I mean, every child needs that and, and you've been campaigning in terms of the upstart and early years for longer and play for longer. But it's so important in creating those foundations that actually, if the government invested right in the foundations, then it would give them what they needed all the way through, wouldn't it? So, I mean, we've gotta carry on with plugging away with that. But in the meantime and, and forever, yes. The medium village of the actual real life people on the ground. Actually, one of the, the things that Scotland, Scotland has been pretty good. I mean, still got flipping literacy and numeracy tests in primary one, which is daf. But, um, we have got, and it's, it's downloadable if you want to get it a really, really good, um, developmentally appropriate, um, guidance mm-hmm. For birth two six. Yes. And it's called realizing the ambition. Mm-hmm. So if anybody's interested in stuff on child development and you know, the way it works, that's a very good and readable, um, document, which you can get asking. Yes. Yeah, that's good. And I think the other thing is, I think in Terms of this webinar, we're gonna have a mixture of people watching this. So there will be some settings, some childcare settings, so schools, nurseries, pbis, um, and there will also be some parents. And I think on both sides of that, um, like you're talking about campaigning and things that you can read, things that you can look at, there's definitely ways that you can clear yourself up. And so you can ask those questions. And I think there's a responsibility on all of us to try and build those communities. It's not just the teachers or not just the parents. Yeah. I think it's everybody coming together to say, we can do better. Like, we can do something better here and what can we do? And it, It's also that the, the more you are participating, the more pleasure you're getting out of it as well. Yes, it's true. It was, um, Tim Gill, who's a brilliant play specialist, um, he said he and his wife decided they'd contact other people in their local street in the area, and they, they actually got together with a few parents, and then they got those parents to contact other parents and, and eventually they were able to let their children go out and play together. They, they worked, the, the dads worked out good roots to the local park place that they could play and they, they, they found little, little ladies who lived in the street who actually were there and were handy and would be very keen to, to mm-hmm. To keep an eye on the children. So if the kid needed things, oh yes, let them knock on my door, I'd be very big. So it actually became a sort of community revival thing. Mm-hmm. Um, so, so I I think it does, you've got to be a bit brave. Yeah. Yeah. It's because I, I know you saying that Sue, one of the, the hardest things I know for me is asking for help sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. I think there's been plenty of times where I've been like, oh my goodness, I can't do this on my own. I need some help. But, but you don't ask, like, you just go through those days and you wake up the next morning and it's a better day and you're okay again. But, but yeah, I think having that community that you're saying actually being a little bit proactive and trying to build some of those things and so that you've got that, that backup to fall on and you've got those people around you to support and help you makes your life easier in the long run. So it's just taking those steps to begin with. So Yeah. Yeah. It's the, it's the first sort of, why did you come round and have a cup of tea thing that, that you've got to get over, and then once you've got it going yes. It, it becomes natural and, and people can take turns. And it, I I, I know of lots of, um, people who at the end of a school day, one month will do the collection of a few kids and take them to the park mm-hmm. So that two other moms have got time to get some of the stuff done or whatever. It's Yes. Um, and it, as you say, you know, you those times can be really enjoyable because you've got the chance to nater with a mate or just drift out of it while the kids are playing. Yeah. It's, we've got to do it. Mm-hmm. We've gotta do it. And it is, it's just making those first steps and, and often I think, I know with my, my daughter's setting that I drop her off at, you don't get chance to talk to those other parents. So it's making that time, having that conversation, saying hello, like, and Why do you not have time? Um, I know with my setting where we drop her off, um, it's probably not the most ideal drop off, um, because it's kind of a long corridor kind of coming in and out and yeah. It's not really a space for you to mill around and chat with each other. Um, and then also, um, for me, obviously with working days and things like that, it's often a, I drop her off and I've gotta get back to do my work or do whatever. Um, so, so I think it just, you kind of get to the end of the week and you feel like, like No, I haven't really spoken to anyone massively in terms of the setting. There's a few that I settled my little girl at the same time as, so we were sat in the back room for like a week when we settled them. And I feel like those parents, when I see them, I know them a little bit. So I will kind of like chat and say, how are you? And when we pass in the streets just on the way in and out, we'll stand for sort of five or 10 minutes and have a little chat and a atter and, um, because I feel like there's that connection being made already from when we settled our children at the same time. Um, and then there's other parents that I will say hello to as you pass, but you don't really never really had a chance to talk to them at all. So, so I see the, the things were moving in such, so much the right direction and the Sure starts where there, there'd be a room where you could go and get a coffee and a, and a sit down and a chat and meet other people and mm-hmm. Some of them even had little sort of coffee areas that I Yeah. Places. Yeah. Because I worked in, I worked in a, I worked in a primary school and then a nursery school, and then I went to work for the children's centers and I was the play lead for the children's centers in, uh, in Tower Hamlets for the Northeast Tower Hamlets, which I loved, like one of my favorite jobs. I'd loved it, it was just about developing play with children's centers. Um, but then I went back into school again, um, and oh my goodness, I was just like, I can't believe the connection that we had with families in those children's centers. And now I'm coming into schools and it's just stopped. And it was the same families and I was seeing families that I knew all this like insider information about and about mental health and situations where we supported them with different things and then they were coming into schools and people didn't know that about them. And it was just really upsetting for me to see that disconnect between the children's centers and the amazing work that they did. And then this kind of stop at the gate culture of they're not allowed into the school in the same way. So, so yeah. It is, it's the children's centers just do amazing, amazing work with families. Yeah. And I think that needs to feed into schools. And I think I was lucky in a way because I could bring that into the setting that I was in because I had that experience of seeing how it worked and what it was like. But that's not always, that's not always the case, is it? Yeah. Well, and so many of them have now disappeared. Yes. Um, but it, it, again, it was very much to do with the, the community involvement, people participating and being involved in doing it for themselves. Yes. And somehow it's anything one can do to facilitate that. So I, I hope Yes. Can be looking at, at thinking about that because Yeah. It's true. And I, and I think in, I think, cause I know I went from the children's centers to the primary school and we did little things like, um, like, um, doors were always open, so we always used to have at least sort of half an hour, if not longer at the beginning of the day, parents could come in and play with their children. So it was always doors open policy. We'd open the doors up at the end of the day so they could come in and do storytelling with us at the end of the day instead of standing in the rain at the gate. Right. Yeah. We used to do things like, like coffee mornings and stuff. And we used to do things where we used to say, we need your help making story props, so come in and help us so, and paint and make masks and do things. We'll provide tea and biscuits and coffee. You just come in and hang out and make puppets. And, you know, we had loads of parents coming in and we had a big Bengali community. So, um, what developed then was we had a load of parents that were sitting in those puppet making workshops that were talking and saying, we dunno how to make mosis. Can you teach us? So we gave them all of the equipment and stuff so that Bengali, like the Bengali community mums could then, uh, teach some of the other mums how to make Sams. And then they did a return thing where they taught 'em how to make cupcakes. And That sounds real. Yeah. Actually. And we had a parent that came in and taught everyone how to do fruit carving. And, and we also did this thing where we said, we want to develop our home corner. We've got a load of very creative parents. We don't have the time and capacity as teachers cause we're so overworked and tired and done in, but like, can you do it for us? We will give you a budget. And I gave them a budget of, um, a certain amount of money and they came in and developed our home corner for us. And oh, I could, they did an amazing job. We had a Banksy picture. They got the caretaker to build them like a huge big community table. They had one of the parents that like did, like, donated a proper kitchen that they dripped out from their house. We had like, someone who gave bunk beds. We had this wonderful home corner. And yeah. So we, we wanted them to take ownership and we said to them, we want this to be your, your setting too. We want you to develop it with us. So we were very lucky that they did get an account, but That's, you know, that's your perfect example, isn't it? I mean, it it, something similar happened in East Gilbride in Scotland. cause um, I did a follow up book to Toxic Childhood, which was called Detoxing Childhood, which was a little thin quick, um, sort of version of it. Yes. And so they started a, they, they, they bought copies of it and they started a, it was a school, it was a head teacher and, um, some community workers. Yes. And they started this detoxing chartered group, and it went on for years actually. Yeah. Because the people that got involved in it just kept it going so that they, they built their own village in East Kilbride, which was very joyous. I used to go and see them quite a lot. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Um, but it, you, there's so many ways that mm-hmm. You, you can pass on information. Like, I mean, when, because of Beth having my daughter having this big village of her own, um, I used them as a focus group quite often when I was doing stuff. So I used to get 'em together and we'd watch a film, um, about one of the issues that I was interested in, and then have these long discussions about it. And gosh, I learned so much just from sitting and chatting with, you know, with moms and dads Yeah. Doing that. Mm-hmm. It's fi it's finding just being brave. Yes. Getting people together for various mm-hmm. Yeah. Even Food and tea, they'll always come. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. If there's biscuits and free food, then yeah. You more often get more people into those kind of things. Oh, Definitely. Yeah. That's it. So, but no, it does, it works. But that's, I'm, I'm taking over, I'm chatting, chatting too much soon. No, no. I mean it, that, that's the point, isn't it? Because you're actually doing it. Yeah, Yeah, Yeah. Yeah. And I have to admit, I didn't because I, I was in a new place and I had a sick husband at the time, so I was not able to do that. And I got a really good thorough going post late depression outta it. Yeah. You do need, you desperately need when you're, you're looking after little kids. Yes. You need other grownups around that you can moan to and, and sympathize with and, and learn from. Yeah. Yeah. It's true. You do. You do. You a hundred percent do. And I'm very lucky because I've got, um, I, I've got a house in London. I'm lucky that I can rent rooms. So I've got two lovely, lovely, lovely lodgers that live with me. Um, one's a dancer and works for the ballet, and him and his boyfriend come over and they dance with, I, we play with her and they're just wonderful with her. And the other guy, he's a sound technician and very good at DIY so it fixes things that I need fixing and, and loves sitting and chatting to Ivy and things. So, so I, that's kind of my, at the end of the day, I've always got someone in the house I can talk to as an adult, which is really nice. Yeah, You are very, that's lovely because we are social creatures, aren't we? We need, we need work well together. Yes. Yes, you do. You need that adult, That adult contact don't you, with people. So, yeah. And I think often, I think in terms of settings, childcare settings, that, that can be some of the only adult contact that a parent might have, like when they've got young children, uh, especially for single moms, if they're coming in and dropping their children off, that that might be the conversation that they actually get in a day. So, so yeah. That's really important to remember that. Well, the single moms of course, have got gingerbread. I used to work a lot with Scotland, with gingerbread in Scotland, and I mean organizations like that, I mean, another good way of meeting people. Um, actually, I'm sure the world is full of a million ways of meeting people and you've got to carry on doing it as you get older as well, but I, there is, I don't think there's any more important time than when you're raising little kids. Yeah. Having it, having that strength and depth around you. Mm-hmm. Yes. Actually, we, if COVID put paid to it, but I dare say we'll be back next year. Now we've got another little granddaughter, but, um, I, for many, many, many years run an Easter egg hunt mm-hmm. Um, for 15 families Okay. For Easter Sunday with my daughter's crowd. Yeah. Because I've got access to the, you know, Edinburgh has these private gardens mm-hmm. Um, which are enclosed, which if you live in a particular area, you can pay to get a key. Yeah. So I was a keyholder to one of these places, and I was able to get them to allow us every Easter Sunday we had these amazing Easter Sunday festive thing down in the gardens. Yes. And I really loved it because the grannies and grand. Yeah. That's Good. Yeah. That's, And that's the other thing as well, like you're saying about the old ladies that live in like a certain area and like, I think there's, there's a lot of those older people that are quite lonely, aren't they? Yeah. Well, I mean, one of the big things at the moment is intergenerational. Yes. Yeah. And getting nurseries, um, together with or built on the same site as, um, old people's, um, villages. Um, and those seem to work incredibly well. Yes. Um, I, I visited, um, one that was doing it that, oh gosh, it was a wonderful nursery actually on a working farm mm-hmm. In I think Lincolnshire. And they were building the old people's village nearby so that they could have the, have the, um, sort of cross-cultural thing. And it's, it does seem to work really well for everybody, but again, usually that's going to rely on possibly local authorities and other people to do it for you. And so much of this stuff, it has to be done for yourself. Yes. You can't wait. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. No, I think, I think that's a really important message. I think, I think it is actually just for everybody to kinda step up and do something a little. Yeah. Yeah. Be brave. Be brave. Talk to someone that you might not talk to normally, like, You know, Maybe. And don't be disappointed when it doesn't. Yeah. In fact, it's a bit like play, isn't it? I mean, you've gotta be brave, you've gotta try lots of, and sometimes it doesn't work, and you learn resilience from that, and sometimes it does. Yeah. And that's, that's Where you, that's where we learn from children, because like you were saying, you put those eight children in the woods together and they're best mates by the end of it, that they're all playing and talking. And like kids don't have that fear. They'll go up to with the children, but they don't know they've never met before. So Yeah. As adults we kind of stand back a little bit more, don't we? Yeah. Learn to be scared. Yeah. Yeah. That's true. So, yeah. No, it's really important. But yeah. Is there any other messages you'd like to Uh, I, I did put that up just so that people know about it because I do think that that, obviously that's a state led thing, but we, we've got to start valuing early years in terms of the way we, we, we provide for it. Um, and recognize that it doesn't end at the age of four or five just because we've got an insanely early school starting age. Yeah. But, um, we are, we are moving forward in Scotland. I think we've got our fingers crossed that we might make. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I'll put some links in as well at the end, so if anyone wants to find out more about stuff. Thanks. Yeah. That be, it's been lovely having a chat and I'm so glad you've got your village. Yeah. It's been Really nice talking to you.